2 pop units are not pop 2

Whos lancers and in what senario?
If im facing sipahi ir other lancers yeah ill take chonks over sticks.
Do you mean you think 2 lancers can take 1 chonker? Or that youd rather have 2 lancers for 1 chonk? Because these are 2 very different things

1 Like

imagen

Well… here are 2 lancers dying against an armored pistoleer…

9 Likes

It’s a unit that costs relatively little for what it does, it has a lot of area damage range and it has 2 cards that give different types of area attacks, they’re definitely worth 2 pop.
How much does a jeager purchased from the fire throwers cost?
image
cost 50w 75 g

image
jeager with 3 drumers with merc deck, merc age, with germay who has one of the strongest mercenaries in the game (age V)
cost 200g, wtih church card 190g

image
sweden jeager They also get excellent statuses but cost 80g 80w

Jeagers have less range than fire throwers when using rocket attack and no jeager has an area attack, fire throwers have 3 types of attacks and both have area damage and also have siege dmg in area, with all cards in the mode in melee he uses the flamethrower attack, in melee mode jeagers are useless.
and even so it costs cheaper than a jeager

but if you still have any doubts about the power of fire throwers

just look at the difference in performance between abus vs jaegers and abus vs FT

The same proplem as outlaw. Low cost never compensate high population.

Firstly, they threw hoops and not rockets. In a real battle at a distance of 20, they would fire missiles at a speed of 4 instead of 3. (2.70 vs 3.60 a big difference)


Secondly, if your opponent is not an idiot. He will not fight under the depot buff. It will just come from the other side.


Thirdly, Jaegers are more expensive for a reason. They more effective.


Fourth, show me a skirmisher who will lose a fight to fire throwers with the same population. There is no such.


Fifthly. I tested Maltese skirmishers in ranked battles and came to the conclusion that using cassadors I win more often.

1 Like

I live to serve.

Here are 24 fire throwers winning vs 48 Skirms.

(3000 res vs 5520 res, almost twice the resources in favor of Skirms)

Both on their veteran upgrades, no cards, open field.


Not convinced? Fire throwers numbers too high? Area of effect OP?

Here is a 1v2.

Fine… I didn’t get it to win.
I tested it once, and there is probably a balance between using volley and melee mode there, but I’ll take that trade ANY day of the week, that Skirmisher won’t make it to breakfast, it’s going to get picked off by a settler or a pissed off wolf, bet on it.


Fire throwers are worth the 2 pop, and they are not trash.
If you can’t replicate the experiments to win, it’s probably because you can’t micro well enough, BUT, practice makes perfect.

They are meant to dispatch bunched up units while having fair health with their ranged resistance, so force the enemy infantry into corners and beware stagger mode (Not that it’s used much these days, but still, beware).

1 Like

If Malta weren’t a weak civ, people would constantly cry about Fire Throwers being OP.

2 Likes


Stagger mode v1

16 survive


Stagger mode v2


16 survive


Idiot opponent mode


7 survive


Idiot opponent mode vs rockets


13 survive


  1. Your comments are relevant only against stupid opponents.
  2. Fire thrower age 4 unit only.

Another pop 2 loser. Now with overprice.
20240612130719_1

Only relevant at age 2.
Reduce damage to 45 and range to 20 and make it 1 pop.

Not just in the late game. In the entire game they are not population effective.


I don’t see any pop 2 unit in this picture. This is ridiculous.

There have been countless debates on whether sentinels should be 1 pop or 2 pop. I’m clearly on the 1 pop side.

My point in specifically saying “late game” is that early game they have the advantage of being extremely cost effective while defending. It’s a unique advantage. In sup that isn’t bad.

Their pop efficiency is technically bad all game, but early game it doesn’t matter much (it’s a lot better than outlaws which cost a lot more).

Late game they probably need flit locked rockets replaced with a card to make them cost 1pop.

1 Like

1 house for 10 soldiers and 2 houses for 10 soldiers a big difference for me. build 10 musk = -1 v@gon.
No, they are always bad. And waiting until age 4 to start building them is very bad.

If your going to make disingenuous examples please at leasy remember to give proper upgrades. Where are the rockets, advanced arsenal, and 20 card hp boost for hoops?
If its age 3 vs age3 keep it age3 stats not imp.
Also run them vs skirms then cav then outposts etc
Res as well since in real games bad monocomps arent the regular (usually)
Youll eventually learn

7 Likes

while the age4 sents need upgrades your forgetting 3 things
speed/range of sents
defesnive auras
eco relative. otto jans are GOAT post imp musk but in a long age2 they could be soldado/ashi combos and youd still die to malta sents because they going to run you around and have 2-3x the eco the longer it goes

Aoe3 is not a vacuum, which is why its hard to really simulate a weird unit like hoops or sentinels because they are paying for several abilities wether defensive buffs (sents) or being hybrid unit (hoop)

I should probably not read too much more because the more posts I see the more issues with this methodology I see. If you are only seeing it from a treaty perspective thats fine, or a late late game that’s fine, but its clear you dont get the how to actually use the value of early game sentinels

I can link another game of me beating a spanish logi timings with sent/order huss but would it help you understand how to use them? I’m sure there are better harrison videos demonstrating how speed 4.25 extra range def buffed by depot and order huss sentinels arent bad at all for that stage of the game. People’s complaints are mostly because the scaling is all over, not because they are an objectively trash unit. We mostly just want a unit that does its job at every stage, not weird OP into underpowered spikes/

6 Likes

I’ve never used an editor before and I don’t know how to get AI to send cards. So I would be happy to show a fight with 300HP Voltigeurs and a fight with the Unction aura. With a more interesting result than on my screenshots.

What is early game? 5 minutes? 10? Is 15 still early? Who else besides the cavalry can they repel?

  • My position on sentinels is this: if for normal operation of a unit it is necessary to build an outpost, walls and a depot, while it cannot move away from them, in these conditions it should be generally invincible
  • or make it 1 pop.

Exactly, damn it! It is impossible to “scale” a schmusk that is unable to go outside and takes up the entire limit of troop building.

It seems you went with these upgrades:

How is that a proper experiment? Not only did you unfairly include a shipment for Skirms and not for Fire Ts., you also forgot that fire throwers naturally get more hit-points from Malta’s bonus (2% more HP from every shipment), that means that in the long run, they could survive 1 or 2 extra skirm shots!

That’s why I tested them in age 3 with no advantages, only both of their veteran techs active.

Also, not sure if you noticed, but even in your own experiment, the fire throwers won the exchange (In stagger mode v1 and v2).

So…

Ready to take it back? :sweat_smile:


That micro makes gives me depression, look at all that overkill…
No wonder they lost, did you use the same micro with the other experiments?

6 Likes

I’m not sure either but often you can just directly alter the stats which I find easier albeit i am not a modder nor the smartest person but it works

First you need to understand what malta likes to do early. Early game is typicaly under 7 to 8 minutes, mid is until you move off natrual res typically 15-20 minutes. Early on, assuming not a rush/forward pressure, malta wants to send german tongue and boom. The goal is to get max wagons and winningcourt for a massive advantage. This ofc comes at a cost of tempo so you’ll need a unit that is reltavely cheap but fast. Sentinels under defensive buildings are the hp of a vet musk, 2x the hand attack, for a pittance more. Wood isnt really and issue and early on most people have 1 military building so beefy musk vs normal musk under defensive fire = defense. If they go into light infantry, your order huss handle them great since the extra stats mean you beat huss (remember unit buff cards are last to be picked since unit and crate shipments better payoff in early game) and taker a lot more punishment from light infantry. all while your fast musk can chase down speed 4 units or run away and let them eat building fire (or depots). All this means your opponent must dedicate incredible resources to rush you or let you boom in peace and try to fast fort/fast industrial you. Even here, the raw stats of sentinels and order huss once age3 allows you to take a beating while having a better eco. the fast age up cards means getting vet is also not bad. drop a fixed gun and suddenly you’ve got quite the army to allow you to omega boom.

The problem is right around when the boom pays off, opponents will have max pop army will be sending unit upgrade cards and will have the eco and military buildings to pump units. Now your 2pop space, lack of offensive scaling, is an issue. the rocket card age4 gives you another spike but again, its a short window. Your slightly above 99 vill pop, no 2nd factory, and better pike/bow all work to make sent order huss fall short late game. But in a normal supremacy game, the use of sentinels helps you get to the extremely strong age3/early 4 maltese economy where you can just throw these dudes away and grind down opponent.

Or its vs spain usa otto who simply fast fort so fast and their units clobber malta so bad its just a nightmare since before your boom pays off its over. This isn’t a sentinel issue but a general game issue where the tempo civs are dominating vs the scaling civs.

no unit should be invincible. as for sents, they kind of are vs most age2 pressures assuming its not a contain from russia or a ashigaru ball with buffs (the og lame musk). as for treaty levels, well maltas issue there is numerous so not even sure where to start. I’d like my army to have 1 unit that doesnt die like a chump to f/up cuirs en mass for starters. or a real late game eco.

4 Likes

Nope! Adv Arsenal only. You miss.

Thats for you too.

Yes, you are right. They won the exchange. Only now the Skirmishes went on to kill the vils.
As I already said here on the forum, fire throwers are absolutely identical to outlaw. With all the problems that this entails + they are not built instantly at the age of 5. That is, they are slightly worse than outlaw…

The micro shows the mathematical result. If I use micro, I will defeat skirmishes with musketeers. AI does not use micro.
Again

I tested it again, I missed the shadow tech while testing in the ############################################# page.
My bad, still, Fire Ts came on top lol.

EDIT: Again with the wacky censoring, someone needs to work on that. I sent a link, this one:

imagen


With the way you place outposts, you bet.
They won the fight on an unfair number superiority, Malta would still have 2100 resources to defend against 16 damaged skirmishers.


As for micro I meant that you placed them unparalleled to fire at each other, if you want better results, get them parallel face to face and in range of each other.

It’s not perfect experimentation, but it’s the closest thing to tangible numbers we got.
Other than that, I’d have to use hours upon hours testing it in a private lobby using discord and a buddy.

Experiments don’t always tell the whole truth, but experience has taught me that the fire T is a good unit.

3 Likes

It is not economically profitable to invest in the construction and upgrade of a unit that can simply be removed after 20 minutes. It doesn’t help at all. The unit should not have a time limit for use. This means that if you didn’t implement it within this period of time, you lost. So how to implement a defensive unit? At this time, the enemy is amassing a normal army, which he improves and will use even at the age of 5. I am very glad for you that you have adapted to playing on a disabled civilization (just in case, without any hate speech, just a statement of fact). My opinion is that it SHOULD NOT work like that.

Then the preparations should be reduced. With all the buffs, he is weaker than the fusilier and soldado, who do not need preparations. What the hell?

The avg 1v1 game is finished in under 20 minutes, last i checked average was 17 minutes. If a unit is strong under 20 minutes and wins games then does it matter if its weak at 40 minutes? for 1v1 sup players, usually no. for teams, which average longer sometimes. for treaty yes. So yeah, a unit that is better than others till 20 minute is fine. After that, I need to transfer into bow pike fixed gun. Thats called a tech switch. its a common thing in rts.

You can literally do all this with 1-2 card support for sents and have plenty of space for pike xbow. you can transition earlier.
fusilier are not a viable unit to spam in normal 1v1 or even most team games so dunno why you are stuck on this. If it is a treaty mode thing, well treaty has probably needed its own seperate mode for balancing because treaty meta not supremacy meta and you cant easily balance 1 for the other.
If all you want to do is stick to 1 unit compositions the entire game, may I suggest you play usa/otto/misbegotten dutch? here are civs that basically can sit on 1 composition the entire game. france to some extent too.

4 Likes