I’d be down for maps that encourage very different dark ages, though. The big problem with Dark Age is that it’s basically just a rote recital test; you do exactly the same things almost every time. All the dark age tends to do with most players is sometimes get a villager killed to a boar or a wolf, which heavily biases the game right in the beginning through something that is often just the result of bad luck.
I’m imagining a map that forces players together early on, like a sort of food-based golden pit. Imagine you only start with like 2 berry bushes, and in the center of the map is loads of berries and deer, but also wolves. Something like that.
Yes, there are maps like Greenland, Valley or Kawasan with different kinds of food in the middle. These kinds of maps are among my favorite map types. These free food sources should be a bit more difficult to get, either because there are more far away from the TC and/or because the opponent has also access to it.
To some degree the “boring” dark age is an Arabia/Arena problem.
True, but honestly I don’t think those maps go far enough. They still generate the full amount of food, meaning normal build orders work, and dark age stays more or less the same.
If you only got, say, 2 sheep, 2 forage bushes, and 1 boar, then you’d HAVE to go forward to get access to additional food, or go for early farms which isn’t exactly ideal. That would significantly delay feudal age, which would encourage early fighting, which would delay feudal age even further, and so on.
same default start, default 6 on sheep → boar → boar. just because it’s “optimised”.
plus: it’s not default maps, noone plays these maps anyway.
sure, it’s the main issue.
Old players can see it as negative, although 1) they did not even try 2) some pros who were sceptical, love 9vils start now.
Also, i do not agree with position: keep game unchanged.
Meta\game should change to return ex-players, to promote itself to new players.
open master of arena 7. I bet you even wont notice that it’s 9 vil start.
9 vils is just 6 on food + 3 on wood, that’s it. you exactly at position of 9 vils, with a bit less scouting
same as why noone plays it.
Start is too fast.
in 4v4 you have to go all-in with scouts at start to fight immediately or your teammate is ded.
Same in 1v1 (if you remember RB wololoo - it’s too aggressive)
True, but honestly I don’t think those maps go far enough. They still generate the full amount of food, meaning normal build orders work, and dark age stays more or less the same.
If you only got, say, 2 sheep, 2 forage bushes, and 1 boar, then you’d HAVE to go forward to get access to additional food, or go for early farms which isn’t exactly ideal. That would significantly delay feudal age, which would encourage early fighting, which would delay feudal age even further, and so on.
I would prefer to have the slow food sources sheep and berry rather close to normal, but the fast food sources hunt or shore fish more far away. Because maps should be somewhat noob friendly, in the sense that they don’t run out of (slow) food after 3 minutes, but the better food sources should be more difficult to get.
If I remember it correctly Greenland has 8 sheep, only one boar, no berry bushes but much shore fish in the middle. That is kinda good. But removing that boar could be an idea for a new map. But removing 6 of the sheep, would knock out players who don’t know the map too hard in the first minutes.
same default start, default 6 on sheep → boar → boar. just because it’s “optimised”.
plus: it’s not default maps, noone plays these maps anyway.
When Arabia or Arena players complain about boring dark age, I question their map choice. They want the build order to be the same all the time, then for some reason they complain that it is too similar and long, so they attack the dark age as a concept and want to shorten it. But dark age is an integral part of the game. If the map requires adaptation, it is more interessting.
BF - same, may be a little bit messy, cause now you have an option to send 3 vils or even 5 vils to wall.
But in current patch if opponent wants to play messy, he can play as same - send 2-3 vils at start to wall. (it’s explored anyway)
MR - You sometimes cant find wood even with default start.
btw, i believe in 9 vils start it’s guaranteed to have 4 sheeps in vision…
Sure, MR can be the most affected one, cause you need to explore: wood + if there is water.
Wont speculate further, need to play or watch. Or just keep it 3 vils for MR, why not?
because it’s optimal default opening.
6 vils on food to constantly supply food for vils.
next lumber for wood.
I literally do not know other specific build order which will be affected \https://aoecompanion.com/build-guides
if you prefer your own build order - fine, what exactly 9 vils will change? You do 8 on food? Sure - you can, and send 1 vil to do smth.
because it’s optimal default opening.
6 vils on food to constantly supply food for vils.
next lumber for wood.
With a bit more of food, you have more of a food buffer, so you can queue up more vils and it means less risk of idle TC/saves APM.
if you prefer your own build order - fine, what exactly 9 vils will change? You do 8 on food? Sure - you can, and send 1 vil to do smth.
The concern is more that there is less time for scouting. How do you even place a lumber camp without a scouted wood line? The time of the dark age can also be used to think about the civ matchup.
So there is a pount early in dark age, where you do what you do with your villagers without much variation, but in that time you use your scout and make a plan for the game.
Maybe it has already been said, but i just want to point out that watching Pros playing is one thing, and actually playing the game is another, it’s a completely different thing. To be honest i still prefer to watch pros with 3 vil start, but some people find it boring to watch.
I’d keep it at 3 vils. If there was something to change, it would be to maybe add 1 extra tech (idk what, maybe someone can suggest stuff) and i’d add a toggle button for the villagers to switch between melee and ranged combat. I think it’s kinda stupid they hunt boars and deers with the bow but fight everything else with a butter knife. the bow attack could have the same range as it does for boars, lower accuracy and do 2 dmg or something, and make the militia move faster or have extra pierce armor to balance it, idk. But if i was a villager and i saw a guy with a club coming to kill me, i’d use the bow.
You either didn’t read my post or you specifically decided to cherrypick something out of my post just so you could argue with me. I’m fine with there being 9-vill starts on specific maps in the general pool, as a mix.
However, the idea that we should change things for change’s sake is silly. You’d have to rebalance civs for a 9-vil start specifically to address ranked which would have an adverse effect on all games, which is one of many reasons it shouldn’t happen. Nobody’s keeping the game unchanged, they simply aren’t making blanket changes to the game haphazardly because some guy said it’d be fun if they did.
Sorry, I didn’t understand the question. English is not my native language, maybe i missing something.
mm idk… if there would be enough food spreaded on the map, laming could loss efectiveness, right? I don’t get how could laming could be more tempting because of expensive farms.
You missed nothing. English is my native language 11 but my fat thumbs butchered the question.
As for the second part expensive farms encourage laming because if you lame their food (boars sheep deer berries) and they have to fall back to farms in dark age they get even more punished now. 100w farms might mean they can’t make it to feudal in any reasonable time
hahha Now I get it. Well… I guess less accesible food in general close to the TC but more faster gatherable in general in the map not necessary implies more time in dark age. Having the knowledge that opponent’s vils could be hunting far from their TC should promote quick feudal time to catch them with scouts, archers or MAA (cheaper barracks).
Maybe, but anyway it would worth to go explore for distant reources when compare a 100W farm vs a 25W mill. You could lame a boar, but easly I could send 4 vils to hunt deers just for 25W.
