Here’s an idea that has been floating around in my head for a little bit. I am not too attached to it, but just thought I might share it.
The idea is pretty simple. When a monk converts a unit, the owner of that unit should get a split second indication to kill it off, just before the conversion finishes. So, just before the conversion is done, the unit switches to gaia for 0.5 seconds. If the player who owns the unit manage to select it individually and press delete, it will then just die, instead of converting.
Right now, you’ll need 3 of a unit to take on 1 monk for it to be cost-effective. That is because after the monk gets a conversion, it can keep healing the converted unit, meaning, that unit will kill your other unit. You might get the monk, but you have effectively lost triple the cost, especially in case of knights/elephants. That is ridiculous, imo.
This tiny change will allow you to take on a monk with 2 knights, and only lose 150 instead of 300 resources. However, it still requires careful micro, and rewards skill. It is also not too much of a change, as it still leaves the monk with charge which it can use to convert another unit.
Again, just spitballing here. Feel free to agree/disagree/scream at me.
I find your idea a little weird. What about a tech in monastery that let you see which units are enemy’s monks trying to convert? Still require a little micro from both players, because kts player should split the focused unit and the monk player should change the target to not being baited
That would require a lot more micro from both players. Because the way to play then would be to pull away the units the monk is targetting, or kill them off after a while on the side of the elephant player. The play on the monk player would be to switch to another target. That way, the monk player will still get a guaranteed conversion. This is actually the biggest problem I see with your idea, the monks can just target another unit, while maintaining their charge. They would still get a conversion that way, and nothing would change if both players micro at the top level.
I feel like this tech, while interesting on paper, would become rather obnoxious and unhealthy for the game in practise. You shouldn’t be able to see who a unit is targeting.
If monks were to be nerfed, I’d simply remove the build-charging mechanic they have. So if a monk is converting a building and retargets to a unit, they’d lose the charge.
Outside of that, monks are fairly easily stopped with any Light Cavalry and Forging, even if they’re amidst Pikemen, unless you’re against Aztecs (and maybe Bengalis)… who in a way should be rewarded for investing that much into their Monks.
(For the OP’s idea, if I understand correctly even after the monk successfully converts the unit into the Gaia limbo status and the opponent manages to select the unit to kill it off, the monk retains the charge? That feels like a buff to monks if anything, unless the monk has to continue converting through the Gaia state as well? 11)
Every pro thinks that monks are OP. If you think otherwise, that’s cool. But I’ll prioritize viper’s and hera’s opinion over random people on the internet.
Also, this is just a clarification. Monks will have to continue converting through the gaia state, and they will lose their conversion charge if the unit they are targeting is killed. Meaning, once the unit hits the gaia state, the monk player can either let the conversion finish, or drop the conversion entirely by moving the monk. However, they cannot target another unit while continuing to maintain their charge.
So this is micro heresy? This can be a big buff to elephants/paladin civs. Elephant civs lack heresy for good reason except malay. There will be less incentive to research heresy. I dont like making a tech potentially obsolete.
What about completely getting rid of the charging mechanic? So everytime the Monk switches the target the conversion Timer would restart.
Would it be too big of a nerf?
I dont like the idea, especially for mechanical units (BBC, Onagers).
I have no problem making Heresy and Faith much cheaper.
I think the charging mechanics between buildings and units is more of an exploit than a feature, and it may be good to remove it.
The charging between units is more the intended feature, to prevent a monk from being pretty bad against microed long ranged units, but this is not the main priority of the knight.
I wouldnt mind much if it goes or gets loked behind an imperial tech.
That is the point of making months: you scare away small groups of very expensive units.
Against a mass, it is hard to micro and the monk arent auto-converting (a feature I dont want monks to gave), so 20 knights vs 20 monks might be in favor of knights even though 1 knight is an eas prey for 1 monk.
I wouldnt mind giving cheaper units like infantry (champions & UU) and crossbows some conversion resistance.
AndvI wouldnt mind make scouts more conversion resistant. Anyways I sometimes feel it is ridiculous how pros still use full monk on Arena when the opponent makes light cav.
I have a different opinion, how about make heresy available in castle age and cost 300 gold ? so that the monk can still trade well against cavalry which is fair enough. ( 100 gold vs 100+ other resources ).
AOE2 is kind of weird in this case. Sometimes you are able to micro stuffs to dodge , sometimes you have no way to do it.
Monks are op units in 1v1 top lvl games, not a cost effectice unit for low levels. Also they are useless at team games, monk play need tons of gold: If you dont have a good micro you would end up losing tons of your gold. If we want to make monks balance first we need to buff them a little bit then nerf them.
Combine some upgrades so it would needs less gold to play monks so even low elo players can play.
Remove stupid hussar and eagle resistance against monks. Mobile units with bonus damage should not have bonus resistance against slow, kill or die units.
Convertion time should affect from units hp. Low percent healthy units should convert faster then high percent healthy units.
Increase reload time like 2x or 3x so monks get used more strategic.
It’s more than that. This doesn’t work as a replacement for heresy unless you are a machine. Let me explain how it would play out:
Say, you have 5 monks and your opponent have 10 knights. You target 5 knights with your monks. Remember than monks have quite a bit of RNG. So, you opponent actually has no idea which unit will be converted, or when. If they manage to spot it within 0.5 seconds and press delete, they have a slight advantage. However, you can’t do this with large masses of units. Also, the unit still dies, so it’s not as if the trade wasn’t worth it (especially in castle age).
This will only work when you use a few knights/ elephants against a few monks. It also requires a lot of babysitting and excellent reflexes.
In practice, it’s always better to just get Heresy.
Yeah, because the devs screwed up. Elephants are totally unplayable in castle and even early imperial age now.
If you think that’s good, alright. I think that’s one of the worst things about this game.
I don’t think so. I’d be on board with this as well.
I wish it was as hard as you say. It isn’t that hard at all. Pros do it crazy well all the time, but anyone can do it after training for a couple of hours. Just play against extreme AI, fast castle, go 5 monks, and save the game before a fight. Now, just repeatedly practice by reloading.
This doesn’t work against elephants. Elephants get converted so quickly, and they are so slow that elephant play, even with a few eles is dead in open maps and in castle age.
I actually didn’t think about those here. But I agree with you, this should not apply to mechanical units.
This has 2 problems imo. Firstly, this doesn’t help with the elephant situation at all, and that is what I am looking for. Second, this is a massive buff to cavalry civs, which already dominate the ladder. Also, cavalry civs get scouts for taking down the monks anyway. So, I don’t agree at all with this.
Not in open maps but in closed maps and team games, they can be quite dangerous in mass. Making elephants harder to counter isnt really a good idea. I would rather revert the trample dmg to 50%
Some elephant civs don’t have heresy is a civ issue, it has nothing to do with monks. You just shouldn’t add another mechanic to simulate an existing tech.
I still think monk counters cavalry too hard, spending 100 gold can usually make a difference of 300+ resources
This still does not make elephants harder to counter. One monk for one elephant is still 100 on the monk’s side and 180 resources on the elephant player’s side. That is as good as any counter in the game.
The problem is knights. Knights are far too strong, and far too easily available, and far too mobile. If you are playing archers, and you don’t have a mass in early castle age, what do you do? You have monks, or you die.
It’s monks against cavalry, and siege against crossbows. These are the tools you use to defend yourself while booming. They are absolutely necessary.
Also, just make scouts if you have knights. The mobility issue isn’t that bad with those. Knights can run while light cav snipe the monks. Elephants can’t run, that’s the problem.
Many civs got FU knight or camel in castle age so you can pick these civs as well if you think knight is a problem.
knight is only available in castle age and its harder to get than archers.
You usually need several knights with lv2 armor upgrade to fight against archers. It will be mid - late castle age already.
archer player does not have a group of archer in early castle age, noob player just gg
Monk cost 100 gold, only converts 1 knight will make opponent lose 135 resources and you will gain 135 resources, that’s 270 resources total.
Mangonel cost 295 resources. equal to 3 monks , so it need to kill stuffs that worth about 800 resources(11+ archers ) to be able to compete with monk. it’s not easy
That’s not the point though. There are many civs who don’t get good camels or knights. Everyone should have a way.
As I said, mangonels against archers and monks against cav are tools you use to defend yourself while you are 3tc booming. If you remove these, you’ll make every game 1 tc push vs 1 tc push. I don’t want that. I don’t think most people do.
They are right there, without needing any sort of upgrades. I recently did the maths, cavalry needs the least amount of resources for upgrades at around 1300 resources, while archers need over 2000 resources. That’s just castle age.
Or not just that. What if you move your archers to raid, while knights come aroubd to your base? You need a mass of archers to counter cavalry while 3 knights can handle like 10 crossbows. Knights are far more mobile thab crossbows, so you can’t easily come back to defend.
Except, the way archers and knights scale are totally different. You don’t need to kill that many. Once the #### ## ##### enough, knights will eat them alive. Also, the point is to push away archers. Same as monks, who are used to push away knights.
You are totally ignoring the dynamics of crossbows and knights, which is the issue imo.
Pros are complaining about monks for a while. I have a rather simpler idea. Just increase monk CD time after a successful conversion and add a castle age version of Illumination which will be a pre requirement for Illumination later.
Monk CD time after conversion 62 seconds → 75 seconds.
New Tech - Holy Scripture : 100 gold, 45 seconds. Reduces monk CD time after conversion by 20%.
3TC booming on what map ? you won’t need monk to defend yourself on closed maps.
On arabia with 1.6k+ elo, nobody instant 3tc, all of them do 1 to 2 tc push first.
you are wrong, people want to watch 1tc push instead of 3tc boom, otherwise you can’t explain why the championships are usually 1v1 open map instead of 4v4 BF or Michi
You rarely use knight, right ? Knight without bloodline and armor upgrade is quite useless
it is 950 resources ( knight ) vs 750 resources ( archer )
Knight need bloodline 250 + speed 150 + armor lv1 150 + armor lv2 400 = 900
archer need crossbowman 300 + attack lv1 150 + attack lv2 300 = 750 that’s it. this is why archers are powerful in early castle age.
How do you defend SC rush ? you can do the same.
3 knight can’t handle 10 crossbows, you need 4 knights minimum and its usually mid-late castle age
Knight civ can be raided too, and people usually pull back their entire army to defend a small raid.
castle can push away knight and archers too, but i didn’t say castle is OP
Monks can move out to attack too, you can’t ignore that.
we are talking about the monks right now, not the dynamics of crossbows and knights