A tiny nerf to monks

That’s not a tiny nerf, it would just make monks nearly useless. Problem isn’t that they convert. It’s how fast they do and how with 0 upgrades they add a lot of value. The conversion mechanics should change. Uniform 28% probability per conversion interval is quite high. There’s 28% probability the unit is converted in 4 seconds, 28*72/100=20.16% probability its converted in 5 seconds, 14.5% in 6 seconds, 11% in 7 seconds which means 74% of the time conversion happens in under 7 seconds and only 26% of the conversions take 7-13 seconds.

My suggestions would be to first change the conversion mechanics into increasing probability as time goes instead of a uniform 28% probability for each conversion. The first CI having 10% probability, 2nd having 15%, 3rd having 20% and so on. This will change the conversion time distribution to 10%, 13.5%, 15.3%, 15.2%. So you’ll only have a 54% chance of conversion in the first 4 seconds instead of 74%. And very little insta conversions (10% instead of 28%)

Other than that there needs to changes to monk tech tree and costs. Particularly predecessors to block printing and illumination should be added. The default monk range should be 7 and its resting time 80 seconds. The predecessor to block printing grants +2 range and that to illumination gives 33% faster faith regain bringing the values to the current default. These upgrades should be 150 gold each and block printing, illumination should become 300. Fervor should be more expensive as well.

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Of course, I totally disagree, because of the following:

I definitely like this idea. However, it still doesn’t address elephants. I’ll be honest, I’m fine with the monk-knight dynamic. It’s the elephants I personally have an issue with. Monks are why you never make elephants in castle age, and something needs to change there.

I like this, but it still doesn’t address the elephant in the room 11

Who cares what people watch? I’m talking about people playing, not watching. This has nothing to do with the conversation.

What I meant was upgrades like crossbows. Ofc I know that they need their armour upgrades. But they aren’t useless without bloodlines, that’s just silly. Of course, bloodlines is a top tier upgrade which you should pick up whenever you can. But knights can still function without that in early castle age. Cav armour is far more important.

Archer also need armour level 1, ballistics, and thumb ring.

And no, that’s not why they are powerful in early castle age. They are powerful because you can mass them in feudal. Ask literally any pro.

Scout rushes are quite weak, by this stage. 1 pike will kill 1 scout. Also, scouts die hard to TC fire.
Bro, I think you just need to watch and play more games. Some of these questions are so obvious that anybody with experience should instantly know why they are wrong.

Monks doesn’t exist in a vaccum. They exist for a reason, and that reason has to do with how counter units works.

People play 1tc push for a reason, that means there are also many people want to do it. We can’t speak for the majority so your statement is not valid.

Not at all. archer without lv1 armor can take 4 hits from knight, it’s still 4 hits with lv1 armor
ballistics is not required, people usually dont get it in early castle age because it need university, and it benefits buildings too
archers are fine without thumb ring in early castle age.

SC got the same PA as knight but with less HP. A few pikes will chase away a few knights too.

I am not the braindead person who played 1k+ games but still with less than 1.2k elo.

I know, but monk is OP is a fact. Tell me what else can take out something that worth 3 times of its cost.

That difference is more than double. That’s what you are missing. Knights can easily withstand TC fire, scouts can’t.

This depends on the circumstance. You don’t just go into castle age in a vaccum. If the feudal play involves skirms, you absolutely need that upgrade. It is not necessary against knights, but you do need it against pretty much everything else. Specifically, against low damage units and against ranged units.

Archers are fine without thumb ring, but not ballistics. Ballistics is way more important than thumb ring by mid-late castle age.

No, you are the braindead person who is saying #### #### like “monks are OP” to a person who made a post about nerfing them lmao.

You wanna bet I can cross that elo in like 1 month? It’s not that I can’t do it, I don’t want to do it. I’m happy where I am. Let’s bet like $100, and I’ll do it. Make it $500, and I’ll cross 1400 in max 2 months.

I don’t know who is denying that monks are OP. This post is literally titled “A tiny nerf to monks”. I have another post, which is linked on this one, which is a bigger nerf to monks. So, I have no idea who tf you are talking to here.

I’m not saying the nerf is useless, the nerf is too strong and makes monks useless. There’s a reason why Heresy costs 1000 gold. The whole value of conversion is getting the unit to your side. This is why even when a monk converts a knight and gets killed, its still a better trade for you.

Paired with the rest of my suggestions which you’ve conveniently ignored, it does. The purpose of a nerf is never to make a unit nearly useless. In an attempt to nerf monk usage against elephants, you’re nerfing overall monk usability. Infantry civs rely heavily on monks for mid game and this change would just make them very difficult to play on open maps. And even though you’re intention is to make elephants more usable, this change will only make knight spam from civs like Franks, Huns, Malians.

And even if this change seems insufficient, the next step would be to increase minimum conversion times by 1 second for all units and then add another upgrade to change it back to current values. And you can balance around a lot with these 3 upgrades. Deny them for a few civs which are otherwise strong like Chinese, Malians or Portugese for example. Give one of them for free to weaker civs and so on.

He’s probably including ballistics and thumb ring.


Maybe I just don’t get it. So tell me, how does your suggestion help elephant play while not nerfing them against knights?

with bloodline, both SC and knight are good
without armor, knight die to TC fast as well.

You mad bro, seems you are the braindead people who got called out. 11
It is you who should watch and learn, not me, because I got much higher elo than you.
IMO, 1K games are a lot and you should be quite good.

lol, both of us think monk is OP and why you are arguing ? Heresy is doing the same job as you proposed and why do you need another mechanic ?

In IMP age, I usually don’t need heresy, but I want it so bad in castle age especially for small group fight with less than 10 units. In castle age, monk is cheaper than knight so 1 monk for 1 knight is not that bad.

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Lower probability of early conversion. The current probability of converting any elephant unit in 5 seconds or lower is 49% while with the updated mechanics it will be 23%, less than half the chance of too fast conversions. Even if your elephants are 4 tiles away from an monk, there’s enough time for elephants with husbandry to run out of monk range. At 3 tiles or fewer distance from monk there’s a fair chance to kill the monk. Its like having a Teutons ally for free. If that’s still not good, you can increase minimum conversion time and add an expensive tech needed to decrease it back to current value. How are any of these not a nerf for monk against elephant units? You can still convert but the expected return from monks reduces significantly.

And why would you not want any nerf against knights? How is the pseudo free-heresy proposal you’ve made not a nerf against knights. Knight player would always come forward to kill the monk and when they see the gaia knight delete it, kill the monk and continue with their raids. You’d accidentally be making knights and knight civs much stronger than they are. But if more techs needed and default conversion mechanics change, there’s a good tradeoff. Initially you’d need to be more cautious about moving monks away from your base but after all upgrades you can continue using them the way they are used now.

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Even with bloodlines, scouts can only withstand less half the TC fire, and die much harder to pikes. How is this even contentious? There is a reason why nobody makes scouts in castle age except to snipe monks.

Not mad, bro. You directly called me out, don’t pretend otherwise. That’s fine, I have no issue with some shit talking. I don’t take any of this personally.

Oh, and that bet is still open to anyone. I have faith that some sucker will eventually take it and I’ll make some easy money.

Your last game was over 2 years ago according to aoeinsights. The game has moved on, old man.

Also, on a more serious note, I don’t think higher elo players understand the overall game, with all its units and map types, better than a low/mid elo player, necessarily. That is true unless you get to the very top, who do understand everything better. Getting to mid-high elo (I don’t have an exact number. So, say, 1800-2000) is about minimizing your in-game errors, reading the game, and perfecting your strategies. However, those are differences in execution, not knowledge.

You were the one who brought up the OP argument, not me. This new mechanic has more than a few differences from heresey. First, it is available in castle age. Second, it requires a lot of babysitting, and tight reflexes. I don’t think most players would be able to actually react in time to save more than 1 unit. Lastly, elephant civs can use this. Most elephant civs don’t get heresy.
These are important differences imo.

The cost is 1000 gold. Even if it were available, I don’t think you would/should pick it up.

You didn’t get my point. I didn’t say this wasn’t a nerf. In fact, I explicitly agreed with you that the change you proposed would be good. The problem is, your change is far better for knight civs, because knights are faster. If you slow down monk’s conversion times, that will give knights more time to get closer and kill the monk. This will always be true, for any timing based nerf, and that’s just because knights are way faster than elephants.

Because monks usually garrison in TCs to avoid this very issue. Also, you say “delete it” like it’s easy to do. You have 0.5 seconds, which, in practice, is more like 0.3 seconds because the game runs at 1.7. You also don’t know when that 0.3-second timer will kick in, and you don’t know for which knight it will kick in. Try snapping your finger once. That’s the time you have to find the gaia knight, select it by itself, and kill it. If your opponent has 5 monks, I’d say that you might be able to kill 2 knights if you have extremely sharp reflexes. That’s still 3 knights converted.

Maybe just give elephants Bengalis monk resistance level by default.

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Monks start at 0% faith instead of 100%.
Any views on this nerf?

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In high ELO games, there are quite a few players use SC in castle age. Their SC can usually harass within TC range and they dont die fast with micro. Your villagers will idle for a long time if you shoot those SC.
But yeah , players with lower than 1.4k elo dont know how to use SC, you don’t even need pikes to defend them.

This is my Microsoft account that suits this forum, I don’t have Xbox so I don’t think I can play aoe2 with it.

This is true, I don’t think I know this game as much as most of the high ELO players because I reach certain elo by only mastering a few strategies, This is why I don’t start such as post myself because I don’t know if I am right.

Unless you are fighting against trash monks in imperial age or heresy is not useful in massive battle. I didn’t see people spam a lot of monk in imperial age and the opponents need heresy to deal with.

I can either pull this unit away or send it to kill the monk, In your opinion, it will turn to a gaia unit and sounds like I will lose it anyway.

Why don’t you ask dev to make heresy available for all civ ?

It shouldn’t cost 1000 gold. There are few people play monk in imperial age so people don’t care.

Trust me, you will be able to dodge arrow if you can micro in 0.5 sec and your elo would be much higher.
According to your current elo , this change is not for you, don’t waste your time

How about:
Revert the DE monk buff so they convert at the same speed as in HD.
Move Faith to castle age, and half it’s cost.

When you hear the monk conversion sound you’re automatically going to look there. Depending on how slowly you’ve responded and distance from the monk you can either run away or delete it. And how are any of this suddenly so feasible when you make elephants? Your point is like, “oh you cant delete a knight in 0.3 seconds, its too little time, but you can easily do that with elephants”. Either its quite possible with both or too diffcult with both. If its possible to do most of the times, its like a pseudo free heresy and if its almost never possible then it changes nothing. Its worse then a very minor decrease in probability per conversion interval.

And yours is either beneficial to knight civs or doesn’t affect any civ at all. It does nothing address to elephants in particular. Any generic change to monk conversion mechanic benefits knight civs unless knights or cavalry are specifically excluded from it in which case, it almost stays the same as today.
And the whole point of a change to monk is not to do something like the Arambai or Caravel elite upgrade cost’s useless change. Nor is it to make monks a heal and pickup relics unit. If you slow down conversion time by default and then bring it back to current values through technologies monks can still be used but will be harder to abuse. Aggressive gameplay will be more rewarding.

Now if your idea is to make elephants more feasible, there should be a change in conversion mechanic specific to elephants like a special expensive upgrade needed to convert elephant units from full range or regaining faith slower after converting an elephant or can’t switch conversion from buildings or other class units to elephants and vice-versa. And if you bring all such changes, it might make a late castle age elephant push a bit more feasible with the ROR civs.


Heresy ist a castle age technology🙃

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No, my point is if you have a few units, you can do it. If it’s 1/2 monks against 4/5 of your knights, OR 4/5 of your elephants, you can probably do it. At least, if you have enough of a reflex. Considering how expensive elephants are, you aren’t making a LOT of them in mid castle age anyway.

Or, you can find an optimal point in between. It needn’t be 0.5, it could be 0.2, or 1.2 seconds so that the average player at around 1800 elo can get 2/5 if paying attention. After setting the goals, it’s just testing and statistics to work out the exact numbers.

Yep, I don’t disagree at all. I literally said in the post that I am not too attached to this idea.

I think that the following might be a better idea:

Or, calculate the resistance you need to give to elephants so that from the maximum distance of conversion, they have around 50% chance of getting converted/killing the monk if they rush at the monk, and then find the numbers.

Scouts have much lower attack. Meaning, they take longer to kill villagers, and break structures.

You know what, show me like 5 games where a top tier player went for scouts when they had the option to go knights. I don’t think your claim is true at all.

You can link whatever you want on your bio, duh. Like your steam account name/aoe2 account name. I am not asking you to, I don’t mind one way or the other.

If you want it in castle age, fine. But I don’t agree with lowering its cost, at all.

As I said before, you can push away a LOT of crossbows and cav archers with just a few mangonels, no upgrades necessary. That is an essential defensive role in the game. Monks are that, for cavalry. Giving heresy for cheaper in castle age is such a huge nerf to archer civs that if you want to do it, I want -3 attack and -0.1 speed for knights. Or, give +3 melee armour to all buildings so that cavalry can’t bust through them at all.

I don’t think they’ll ever do it.

If you want to whine about my elo, take the bet. Or go watch my gameplay, I have no issues with dodging arrows. Or, post your public profile, oh 2900 ELO all time #1 super awesome supreme player. If you don’t have at least 2.2k, I don’t give a shit.

God, I hate it when people are like “oH, I hAvE HigHEr eLo, sO, I kNoW eVERythInG mOrE tHaN yOu”. They should straight up ban this in this forum, because it is toxic for discourse.

Sounds of “Wololo” need more time to reach inside the big ear of elephants due to distance. Too gimmicky imho.

I think the biggest problem with monks is randomness. Early conversions in the early castle age cause snowballing, and it really pisses players off. And you can not say that the player who lost a knight to the monk played badly. He was just unlucky, he was counting on “normal conversion timing”. But there’s no such thing in Aoe2. In competitive RTS there should be as little randomness as possible.

Viper suggested reducing the randomness scale. And in general, you could consider removing the randomness of conversion completely. Because monks can not only convert, but also heal units and collect relics.

I mean, monks converting elephants is ridiculously gimmicky to begin with. So, elephants taking slightly longer to convert is not even close to gimmicky, imo. The exact number is about balance. I think the current number for knights are pretty high, and for elephants, it is pretty close to 100%. Once you get faith, the chance is 20% or so.

That’s extreme. Its the same level as a Bengali Elephant with Faith researched. That will totally tilt the balance. 4 or 5 light cav will come and kill all the monks and at max 1 elephant would have been converted.