Now that we know “Jurchens” speak Chinese in the game – yeah, feel free to rename them, they are a Chinese variant lol.
They promoted it so much as a unique civ only for it to end up being just an another Chinese variant (we all knew it anyway)…
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Personally, I don’t really care whether it’s a variant civ or not.
My only request is that, since you’ve already made it, you should strive for historical accuracy as much as possible while maintaining balance.
Overall, I feel OK with the Jin Dynasty itself; my only gripe is that the DLC feels a bit light on content. The “Song Dynasty” is severely lacking in attention from them.
I bet that was only for marketing purposes
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They never said it wasn’t one.
In fact they emphasized specifically that it had unique music and masteries. Those are things every “base” civ has, so there would be no need to point it out if it was also a base civ.
They also explicitly said there would be 2 new base civs this year, both in the 2nd expansion.
Yes, you three are right…it was all for marketing reasons, and while it’s a civ variant, it’s more “refined” like a civ base…
Honestly, this thread simply comes across as anti-Jin.
I like that they’ve added them in the game. I would’ve liked them to use more resources to realize them. But, your suggestion is to rename them to RandomWhateverNoOneCaresAbout just because you’re insulted that they’re being compared to the Chinese, using some of their assets and taking some of their design and thematic space.
That I think is silly.
The goal ought to be bringing real peoples into Age of Empire games. The reason variants like JDA, OTD and ZXL are so insulting is because they are little organizations that don’t bring a culture for us to explore, look into and learn about. They’re factions that had some relevance, but this is AGE OF EMPIRES. Not age of factions, variants or made up nonsense.
I’ll reiterate; I would’ve liked them to give the Jin the whole package. Realistically however, we know these developers really struggle to come up with a budget to make proper civilizations, and so, that is going to be reserved for the most popular civilizations requested. Meaning that peoples like the Jin would have realistically never been added unless in this sort of format. And honestly, this is better than nothing, they have tried. Or should I say, this is an improvement in more ways than one from the original ways variants were added. Better theme, new assets, new mechanics. Honestly, it’s just default buildings (houses, TC, production, keeps) and some default units (villagers, spearmen) that are missing. We’re very close to real civilization territory and I can only appreciate that they have listened to us.
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Tbh I’d take Jurchen/Manchu voicelines over these.
Ummm…I wouldn’t say I feel insulted, just kind of overlooked.
Nonono, I think there’s been a misunderstanding. I like the Jin Dynasty, it’s a good concept. Why would I be anti it? Honestly, I actually prefer accurate names like “Jin Dynasty,” and the renaming suggestion was just a pointer to a backup option. My main effort went into suggestions for fixing the Chinese Crossbow models and other visual inaccuracies.
What I really can’t accept about the Jin Dynasty is that it was such a great concept, but instead, it’s being used as a dumping ground for units that should belong to multiple factions. Especially considering this is a DLC that wasn’t discounted but has relatively thin content… isn’t more substantial content exactly what we’ve all been hoping the Devs would deliver?
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I’d be thrilled to see even variant civs getting their own unique music & masteries, especially for highly stylized ones like the Templars.
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I agree with this interpretation, but I don’t think arguing for a rename will yield the intended results. We would lose the civilization and end up with something no one cares about. Some level of abstraction ought to be acceptable (Like in the case of AoE2), and the truth is simply that a civilization so vague and foreign as the Jin is unlikely to get the necessary resources to be fully built. I pointed out in how many ways this civilization closes in on being a real one (at least compared to the past) and though these units may not represent the Jin proper, I also wish they did.
Simply put, things could be better but the proposition to change the name would make things worse. I do agree with you that they ought to aim for full civilizations, as I too believe the Jin deserve that attention.
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I went into the game to check it out, and I do think the feasibility of this suggestion is pretty low now. Since the Devs have already created the Jin Dynasty masteries, our focus should probably shift to how we can adjust or remake the vanilla Chinese civ.
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I took a closer look at the Jin Dynasty’s unit weapons, and it seems we have another “victim” of the Euro-centric weapon styles.
First, facing the same issue as the Chinese and Mongols, the Jin crossbows are also equipped with European-style Cranequins or Windlasses. I’ve repeatedly mentioned this in other topics — this type of winding mechanism simply didn’t exist in the East.
Eastern crossbows tended to invest resources into the bow arms to enhance their power, and they’ve always placed the trigger at the very rear, rather than in the middle. So, we really need to give all Eastern civs a brand new crossbow model.
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And…the Jin MAA is wielding a European-style hand-and-a-half sword, which features a distinct pommel and crossguard.
This might be a easy fix, actually we already have a Chinese sword model — it’s currently in the hands of the Imperial Guard. They just need to reuse that asset!
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I would like to share a few thoughts with the Age of Empires IV community regarding the newly added civilization in the latest DLC — the Jin Dynasty.
1. The Jin Dynasty is historically complex and emotionally charged in China.
The Jin Dynasty was founded by the Jurchen people. In its early expansion, it inflicted severe devastation on the Song Dynasty (a Han Chinese-led empire), including widespread looting and massacres. As a result, although official Chinese historiography recognizes the Jin as part of China’s history (similar to other non-Han dynasties that were eventually assimilated into Han culture), most Chinese people hold little affection for it. That said, in its later period, the Jin underwent systematic sinicization — adopting Song institutions, clothing, language, and employing Han Chinese officials — even claiming to be the legitimate bearer of Chinese civilization. The subsequent Yuan Dynasty also recognized the Jin, along with the Liao and Song, as orthodox Chinese dynasties.
2. The main frustration among Chinese players: the Jin overshadows Yue Fei, the DLC’s nominal hero.
From a gameplay perspective, Chinese players generally welcome new civilizations — new content brings fresh experiences. However, the issue lies in the marketing: the DLC was explicitly tied to Yue Fei, a legendary Chinese general who fought against the Jin and famously wrote of drinking Jin blood and eating Jin flesh. Yet the Jin Dynasty ends up being the centerpiece of the DLC. This contrast created strong emotional dissonance. To be fair, the campaign content itself has been well received, and the controversy has gradually faded as players now focus more on strategies and tactics for the new civilization. Still, the initial mismatch of theme left a sour taste.
3. Historical accuracy — a core strength of AoE IV — is compromised in details.
What makes Age of Empires IV stand out from fictional RTS games like StarCraft or Warcraft is its commitment to historical authenticity. That’s precisely why many players chose it. Therefore, historical details matter. Many Chinese players are confused: the Jin’s unique units — such as the traction trebuchet (bed crossbow), Zhanmadao, three-barreled hand cannon, and nest of bees rocket launcher — actually originated in the Song or Ming dynasties. Its landmark buildings — such as the Dragon Pavilion, Guanghui Pagoda, and Silver Mountain Pagoda Forest — are mostly Tang or Song-era structures with strong Han Chinese cultural characteristics. Why do these belong to the Jin? In its current state, the Jin’s architecture and units feel like a mix of Han, Jurchen, and Mongol elements, with Han influences dominating. This may be why the developers framed the Jin as a “variant of China,” but for players who care about history, it remains jarring.
4. What we hope to see in the future.
We would very much like to see true Yue Fei‑themed content in the future. This could take the form of a “Yue Family Army” variant civilization — though that may be challenging to implement. Alternatively, a simpler approach would be to rebrand existing civilizations: for example, rename the original “Chinese” to “Ming Dynasty,” rename “ZXL” to “Song Dynasty,” and reassign the currently misplaced units and buildings (like the nest of bees, three-barreled gun, etc.) to their historically appropriate civilizations. If the developers have further plans along these lines, it would be a huge encouragement to the vast Chinese player base.
We hope the development team will listen to these genuine voices from the community.
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We need more people like you to point out what devs missed after the release. Good job i hope you make more post like it.
I prefer the latter approach, I’m not a fan of civilizations based on a single army. “Jeanne d’Arc” should also be renamed into something like “Duchy of Orleans”.
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I’ve also noticed that many people believe the base Chinese isn’t considered a DLC civ, so it shouldn’t receive too many updates.
Honestly, we were actually hoping for more than just one new civ to be released, even if it meant paying a higher price for the DLC. Instead, we’re left with the current Jin dynasty, which feels like some sort of strange hybrid. It’s not that the developers weren’t trying, but the execution definitely fell short.
So in the end, we can only settle for less and hope the Devs can use existing assets to improve the current civs.
After all, I am a bit bothered by the devs’ lack of attention to detail. These details might not be the top priority for maintaining the game’s meta, but someone still has to bring this up.
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