Statistically Ottomans are still played more…but odd thing is I run into Germans more these days
Azaps shouldn’t beat musks. In current patch azaps can kite musks and trade with crossbows in a 1:1 ratio, which is not what it was designed to do.
It’s even strange that azaps share every buffs with janissary, and can get 20 range in imperial age: so why should janissary exist in this game?
They need to get range nerf. They simply outrange and destroy everything without getting hit back.
It sounds a wrong approach. The day they lose their range, they will be destroyed by crossbows which are a cheaper unit. Azaps are HI so LI directly counters them.
The only problem I see that they are massed too fast so somehow they need to be trained slower and maybe more expensive.
Arent they supposed to get demolished by light infantry?
They exist to plug 2 former or still current issues of ottoman: heavy tanky cav and goon. They arent supposed to trade into xbow or musk at all. Their role is niche but important vs civs like ports or lakota or france.
Im ok with range as is and it should probably go back to 6dmg base imho. But the arguement shouldnt be “does otto with abus and deli and jans need to have a 4th unit to beat or tie xbow with?”
Except for skirmishers, LI do not counter them. The range problem is exclusive to age2, they can get it back over time with upgrades.
They are still demolished by xbows imo. Never had any problem against them since the last patch unless they are massed. Also we are talking only for the civs which have xbow access. Azaps have no chance against longbows and there some civs other civs like that. For this reason, tempo nerf seems sufficient for me because I dont want to see ONLY jans around again.
Why do azaps need higher base damage to beat musk? Or trade better?
What pike style unit does that besides inca who have no musk?
18 damage 20% rr compared to 23dmg on a slower unit thats supoosed be a solid counter.
Xbow are 16(20 with multiplyers) damage and less health with less range. Thats all many civs have to deal with heavy infantry in age2 cost effective. Add 3 deli and its a game winning rush for some civs. Comparing longbow isnt the best example as longbows are meant to cover brits long age2 wind up and amazing before cannons (still strong after)
Again azaps are meant to kill goon and hand cav. The jan is notoriously poor vs goon or strong hand cav so the azap had niche and use before this change. This change just made a unit break its counter system a bit without need. If you loose to 1/22 civs due to longbow but beat the entire age2 comp of 5-7 civs, thats not balanced imho
This is my point. I don’t think that 8 is high and you might say about rof 1.5 but it is generally impossible to utilize it at 1.5 if you micro. So by my suggestion, you can’t mass azaps and you can’t kill musketeers effectively too.
Let’s not forget that Azaps were more than niche before that, it was completely an unused unit.
It wasnt due to it being bad imho it was due to abus doing everything it did better cause abus are overtuned
They nuked goons
With jans they beat cav
And the wood was better spent using (abusing?) Church techs for nizzam and bombards
Now with azaps finally being more cost effetcive due to other unit nerfs, the community finally realizes a 4.5 speed anti goon/cav unit is solid. Ive used and seen them used at decent team games (1600+ elo) and do just fine, its just abus were op.
Like italy getting buffs as players learned the tower stuff, often civs arent explored and the playerbase cba to experiment till some streamer/pro does so, i think azap got overbuffed as otto players realized “oh wow i dont have to FI every game”
And for rhe record i play otto and like the civ. And been saying these good since winter but again, why not abus/CA or jan/abus or FI till now? If you revert back to 6dmg base and same multipliers (x4) it doesnt mess with unit role anyways
I would never train them again if devs change their damage to 6. I started to use them as they can at least do some damage to other type units with 8.
Also the HC cards were super useless to their damage when it was 6.
I felt like the Ranged attackwas completely useless at age2 and they werent as good as pikemen at age2 with less speed and siege so it was a super trash unit for me.
If they make them with full pikemen features with 6 ranged attack, maybe… but now, they only need less tempo and more resources. I believe I dont have anything left to say
let me dumb this down as much as possible.
16 range isn’t the problem.
8 dmg rof 1.5 isn’t the problem.
4.5 speed isn’t the problem.
wood cost isn’t the problem.
its that it is all 4 combined, and owned by the civ with easy 2 tp open, great ageup time, free vills and sublime porte all together. There’s a synergy happening with all… 8? of these factors and not one single one is the actual lone culprit.
Its the combination that is causing the problem, not any one issue. Y’all can argue for as long as you want about any one issue and it will get nowhere. Good luck.
They do more base damage than pikes and more damage to cav than jans do at any point
They have more armor vs range and in melee
They certainly have more cards than most pike to help scale
They are almost as fast as pikes and luckily deli are wonderful to snare
They beat the bane of age2 otto, goons handidily with 6 base no problem before
They cost 10more food for all this thats it and have good shipments
Then they dont get kited to death by goon which is big reason pikes fall off and they can even catch skirms with low hp like wakina or cass and trade better than they should
And youre like “nah if i cant trade cost effective with musk its useless?”
I dont understand this tbh. But thats ok to each their own.
I dont say they are bad, they are good and finally somehow useable and I wouldn’t want to see a sh*tty unit which wont be used again.
Caroleans got 5 food nerf and look where Swedes r at now. Same or similar can be applied here too.
Well it is great to point out the list, this applies to almost every otto unit.
The range is the problem. It allows them to trade well with xbows and other similar units in age 2. They simply don’t need the extra range until age 4 to be able to counter port goons. Take away the range and sublime porte is no longer broken cause xbows can now trade well.
If you don’t take away the range, they will still be able to trade well with everything that’s not a cannon, unless you nerf every other stat to the point they are useless.
every new infantry has to be 4.5 speed, its the DE Law
If everyone is super, no one is.
And i member a time where Ashigaru were considered OP
The speed will mean nothing is they can’t outrange xbows.
Yes, you can. Remember that the animation has been improved.
Yeah, in age 2 they should probably have 12 range. Vet tech should add +3, and guard tech should add +3 as well. Max range should probably be 18 (so if Imp probably shouldn’t add range).
As you pointed out, if crossbows outranged Azaps the Azaps won’t be op anymore in age 2.
If you want to kill musks, make Jans, or Abus.