šŸ“œ Age of Empires II: Definitive Edition ā€” Update 40874

No if you make Konniks cheaper they would be too annoying to fight, they already are hard to counter.
Fast attacking Paladins is a dangerous option if you remember when Konniks attacked fast as Samurai and they have less HP, now imagine a unit with 180HP and 7PA attacking at 1,42. what would be the counter, even with 15% faster attacks is too risky. Personally Iā€™M fine with their cavaliers as the are viable in 1v1.

Support the Idea of Bagains for dismounted Konniks, and compring to the Teutons melee armor which is free, Bagains is just too expensive for a civ that lack Champion, and Teutonic Champions so basically evrything that Bulgarian Two handed can do but much better.

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yes but said infantry was also basically untrained peasants who were equipped with whatever is available.
ie, aoe2s spearman line. and we see spears quite often, and they are already dirt cheap as is.

removing supplies isnā€™t a nerf to Indians, and removing guilds isnā€™t going to do much either for a civ with the Sultans tech.

if they are so OP why do we rarely see them at the tournament level?

war elephants are insanely strong and the only reason they arenā€™t seen more is due to their high cost. even with mahouts in castle age you wonā€™t see them much due to costing 3 times the food of a knight.

i find the irony of this comment in comparison to your comments about the leitis quite funny.
65 food and 40 gold for a unit that generates gold, has more health and is easier to mass, is fine
but 70 food and 50 gold for a unit that is rarely seen, has less health, and is harder to mass, is overpowered.

Keshiks rank high on my ā€˜worst units in the gameā€™ list. There is no point in making them lol

And how often are we seeing leitis used?

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They arenā€™t used as much but are better than other UUs

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Either way, point is, they donā€™t need to be nerfed.

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Donā€™t worry that some High rated players abuse a unit that costs 50 gold with a civ that lack a eco bonus after dark age by the POV of some users here.

Arambai comes to the next place also

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Arambai are truly fearsome :grimacing:

It is by no means too costly.
When you get into trash wars and you have Druzihna youā€™ve already won. Trample spearmen are so stupid :joy:

Youā€™re right in a way, Iā€™ve already run some tests and Druzinha halbs dominate Japanese, Teutons and Burmese in certains conditionsā€¦ After all theyā€™re classified as infantry civ, and they got nothing special except this late game bonus so I think itā€™s ok :smile:

But itā€™s actually sooo rare to see it in action. Trash war in high level game are often very intensive, and it can be hard to save a lot of ressources for this tech instead of producing more army.

But yeah reducing cost may be not the better idea if it become too annoying dealing with it for some players

Hi Mat

removing supplies isnā€™t a nerf to Indians, and removing guilds isnā€™t going to do much either for a civ with the Sultans tech.

Itā€™s true surely, although it could be a great add for a Indians which are not a very popular civ (3rd least pick according to aoestats) It can also be impossible to balance in either caseā€¦

war elephants are insanely strong and the only reason they arenā€™t seen more is due to their high cost. even with mahouts in castle age you wonā€™t see them much due to costing 3 times the food of a knight.

Absolutely thatā€™s why I think a small food reduction canā€™t hurt them as well. They will still being hard counter by monks and pikes, but at least with a little extra food save they can be a descent choice in more situations.

i find the irony of this comment in comparison to your comments about the leitis quite funny.
65 food and 40 gold for a unit that generates gold, has more health and is easier to mass, is fine
but 70 food and 50 gold for a unit that is rarely seen, has less health, and is harder to mass, is overpowered.

Itā€™s not comparable cases, a concret exemple :

Leitis right know are dealing cost efficiency with halbs and camels in late gameā€¦ theirs counter units :joy: Unlike cataphracts theyā€™re not designed in that purpose, and they also kill anything else for a fewer gold cost. Maybe going mass crossbows can be a good idea, but Lithuanians also have one of the best skirms in the game. Itā€™s up to everyone to make their own opinion, for me at least they are ā€œkindaā€ OP :slightly_smiling_face:

The only reason theyā€™re not so used in high level game, is that pro players tend to have aggressive play style and knights are way easier to mass I believe. But in mid ranked ladder, player spend more time building armies and mass Leitis are so hard to deal with.

Keshiks have good stats for their costs (better than Leitis yes, if we forget that they ignore armors and the relics bonus), but die really hard to halbs/camels. Their gold generation bonus seem awesome on paper, but have not so much impact tbf.

the problem is, go look at them in team games. you give them elephants and they suddenly become an even bigger issue in team games.
also food for thought, despite the low pick rate, Indians are a balanced civ winrate wise.
https://aoestats.io/stats/RM_1v1
buffing them affects that winrate. and your nerfs wouldnā€™t offset the buff.

they still wonā€™t see use in castle age. just too expensive.

yeah except this video fails to take many things into acount. its running 10 leitis vs 10 camels and 10 leitis vs 12 pikes.
10 leitis vs 10 camels is not realistic in a game situation because 1 is made from a castle and 1 is made from a stable. same with vs pikes/halbs. furthermore, pikes/halbs lose 1v1 to paladins too.
that video also shows that 4 camels survived (which is 240 gold worth of units, so camels lost 360 gold) and no leitis (which is 500 gold). so tell me. how is 360 gold worth of camels for 500 gold worth of leitis a cost effective trade? not to mention that upgrading elite leitis is much more pricey then upgrading heavy camel. so on one hand you have someone who has a 650 stone production building, and 1450 food and 1250 gold worth of unit and upgrade. vs someone who has 175 wood production building, and 875 food and 965 gold worth of units. great comparison you got there. SotL is the master of the hypothetical, but a lot of his stuff doesnā€™t pan out in game.

furthermore, the Leitis player has only 180 seconds of production time, vs teh 220 for the camel player. assuming only 1 building each. so the leitis player just twiddles his thumbs for 40 seconds before the fight?

so now were going to balance around mid ranked play? nah no thanks. you balance around the top because that is who balance impacts the most. if the Leitis was as good as you guys are making it out to be, the pros would use it anyway. the fact that they donā€™t even try to sprinkle some in when they have castles up is very telling.
Also. Go look at lithuanians winrates at mid levels and tell me why they need nerfs

keshiks perform better vs archers then leitis do. and they mass up faster.

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Yes indeed, an other guy said higher in this topic Lithuaniens also donā€™t have any great eco bonus apart from their dark age food bonus so it get deeper than this.

Itā€™s great to have your thoughts on this !

Bagains is the Bulgarian Champion upgrade. Try running an equal number of Post Imperial Bulgarian Two-Handed Swordsman vs. Post Imperial generic Champion in the Scenario Editor. The Bulgarians win every time and only lose to super Champions. Bagains also researches much faster than Champion. And Bagainā€™s higher cost than Champion doesnā€™t matter because Bagains is less expensive than the total cost for all of the Militia line upgrades, which are free for Bulgarians up to Two-Handed Swordsman. Only the Italians have faster access to a Champion-like swordsman with Pavise Condotierro.

The free upgrades are their civ bonus though and this shouldnā€™t be offset by the cost of a unique tech.

Lucky you, because it doesnā€™t offset the cost. Militia to Champion is a total of 1350 food, 555 gold, and 260 seconds of research time. Bagains is 900 food, 450 gold, and 40 seconds of research time. If a difference of 450 food, 105 gold, and 220 seconds of research time for a Two-Handed Swordsman that is better in melee combat than most Champions isnā€™t good enough, then I donā€™t know what to tell you.

Except that Teutons have eco bonus (Cheaper Farms) and badass defenses to support a Champion production in a long game while Bulgarians have what?? Free upgrades is not that great compared to that.

What I ve suggested is reduce Bagains food cost to 700.

Ok maybe offset was the wrong word.

Letā€™s look at it this way:
Bagains gives you +5 melee armor. Champions have +1 melee armor and +1 attack compared to 2HS. This basically means +3 is left. Then Chamions have +10 HP compared to 2HS. Iā€™m too lazy to calculate right now, but I assume it should be somewhat equal to around 1.5 melee armor. This leaves us with around +1.5 melee armor, 450 food and 105 gold. And still being off worse to archers than other fully upgraded Champions. For this tiny bit of bonus that is left weā€™ve used a civ bonus and a unique tech. Wooow.

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