All civs matters! (some balance is still needed)

Hi everyone! first of all, I want to kudos the devs, since the last patch seems to have
extinguish the fire (most of it).

So, now let’s talk about the 5 civs noone is using in competitive. and how to make them popular. We all can name them, since we all know which they’re: Rise of rajas civs + Turks. Yeah, I know, koreans are not that popular neither, but they got a recent buff, and a pretty decent one, so I guess they’re fine by the moment.

Let’s start.

Turks:
Quite simple one. Give them elite skirmishers. They have no counter to arbalest. none. 0. Without elite skirmishers or onager, it’s impossible to counter them.

Khmer They’re better than they use to be, but still they need some eco buff. I’ll say economic techs 50% cheaper, and research 50% faster.

Vietnamese Oh gosh. A good civ… if you can survive until they point when they shine (Imperial age). Same scenario than Khmer, they need some eco buff. I’ll say military buildings (barracs, archery range, stable, siege work) cost only 75 or 100 wood. Also, I’ll give them some buff to the archers, since the 20% health don’t seems to do much. Maybe archers move faster, or do +2 to cavalry.

Malay they were over nerfed. I’ll say give back some attack to the harbors (maybe no the 7 attack, but 5?) and make forced levy + supplies make militia line cost 60 food

Burmese Give them thumb ring. They’re supposed to play archers, but arambai without it they just fail a lot. Also, they have otherwise really arc. cavs. Maybe nerf Arambai attack a little bit if the gain Thumb ring (not sure how to buff burmese, please give ideas!)

and, since Rise or Rajas civs are so behind… why did you devs nerfed the Elite Elephant? I mean, yeah, it has much more life than a paladin, but it cost a lot more, and it’s really slower, plus it’s a sitting duck againts monks and pike-line. When they had 16 attack they were viable, but now they’re is no sence in recruit them. I say let’s give them back they 16 attack.

just want to make clear that I don’t want this civs to be top civs like Mayans or Franks. I just want them to be playable as the rest of them
Please, people, leave your ideas and oppinions. Maybe if we all agree on, devs will add this changes!

Again, thanks devs for your work, and the new patch. You’ve heard us about cumans, now hear us a little more.

Thanks a have a merry chrismas and a Happy new near !

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CA destroy arbs… not to mention they get fully upgraded ones with 100hp. If u can get hussar in front this combo is really strong.

They kind of have an eco buff. You can see enemy TC so u can steal his boar min 2 - 3 consistently. Enemy can only stop it by either camping any fwd boar with scout or take boar instantly resulting in slightly worse uptime. So unless you fail bigtime in stealing you should be ahead.

They’re still really strong… You’ll be ahead atleast 2 vills at start of feudal. In castle age you can make elephants which are basically 300hp knights. You should always be the first one up to any age…

They were way too good in late game (with trade). There were no units that could win against it pop efficiently. The only way to reliably stop it was to have more elephant spam. halbs were useless cause they die to ranged units behind the elephants.

4 Likes

All your answers are waaaaaaay situational, specially the vietnamese one. You can’t compare the boar lamming with a real eco bonus (slavs farms, frank berries+auto-farm upgrade, etc)

The turks yeah, they have good CA, but i’m not sure it’s a good idea go CA agains arbs. Anyway, I think lacking 2 of the 3 trash unit make them almost useless.

And yeah, elephants in post imperial are really good, but… can you manage to get to post imperial with one of those civs? Also, malay elefants really sucks.

There were no units that could win against it pop efficiently. The only way to reliably stop it was to have more elephant spam. halbs were useless cause they die to ranged units behind the elephants
.

This can apply to a lot of heavy units. Frankish paladin, for example

I respect your opinion, but I don’t think these civs are ballance. Otherwise, people will use them, but the winning rate and people opinions prove that they’re not good enough

4 Likes

I would say Malay are good, who cares your post-imp elephant army is bad if it stomped the enemy while they were still in feudal? Burmese are OK, the Arambai getting thumb ring would be a nerf because their inacurracy allow them to kill several units when they are massed and you task them to attack only 1 dude. Turks have bombard cannon, free hussars and FU cavalier, they literally never had problems with arbalests. For Khmer and Vietnamese, they sure are slow, just like say Saracen or Portuguese, so they fit in the “slow to be balanced” kind of civs

Well, FU cavalier may be a good counter to Arbalest, that’s true. Bombard cannon, on the other hand, I find it highly doubtfull.

And maybe you’re right about the Arambai. Burmese I don’t think they’re that bad. maybe it’s the best of all 5 civs I named.

I would say that Vietnamese and Khmer are the one we all agree on…

Dunno why people keep stating this…

They’re unwilling to learn a new play-style for the civ it seems.

Oh ye, viet bonus is very situational and very cheese 11

The CA really aren’t situational. If they were no other civ would ever go for them. And u get them cheaper 'cause of the faster gold mining.

You go scouts into CA and get free lcav upgrade in castle if needed. If anything it’s janns being the real situational strat.

The whole point of turks is castle age + imp power spike. If you can’t finish enemy off with superior gold units then u get to experience death by gold starvation.

Some units are just situational but that doesn’t mean they should be a 100% win in post imp teamgame unless enemy somehow has its own elephants.

In imp they kinda do but in castle age they’re very strong. How would u feel if all civs got 300 hp knights in castle age? everyone would be crying for a nerf… gl trying to stop a fwd with these bad boys backed by a mangonel or monks 11

Frankish paladins don’t cost effectively win vs halbs nor do they win vs camels (or atleast barely). Also most civs have a unit that counter it 95% reliably.

Elite battle elephant could be countered in imp by only a handful of civs… It turns halb, paladin, archer, camel useless. It wins vs war elephants cause u can outspam him. U needed either ur own battle elephant (and hope ur civ had better battle elephants), have mameluke or hope it’s malay elephants which are kinda crap in imp.

Dunno why people keep stating this…

I like to watch a lot of pro-player streams, and they all counter arbs with either onagers or elite sk… so… IDK, I supposed that’s the way to go

They’re unwilling to learn a new play-style for the civ it seems.

Maybe because we didn’t figure it out? Please, enlight me and teach me how this civs are supposed to be played?

Oh ye, viet bonus is very situational and very cheese 11

I don’t think it’s a bad bonus. I just said it doesn’t help your economy overall. Yeah, you might steal a boar, but, again, you may not. It’s not 100% reliable, and/or it’s not as good as other bonuses

The CA really aren’t situational. If they were no other civ would ever go for them. And u get them cheaper 'cause of the faster gold mining.

You go scouts into CA and get free lcav upgrade in castle if needed. If anything it’s janns being the real situational strat.

Never said CA was situational. The way you say it, you might be right about this strat. CA may be the way to go with turks.

Are Elite Battle elephant really cost effective agains halb? They’re for sure agains paladin, But I keep my doubts agains halb

Anyway, it seems that you’re all really good with this civs. I wonder why noone picks them, besides you, of course 11

It’s not that they’re bad civs, the others are just better in more situations.

Once trade gets going u need pop-efficient units. To kill 50 paladin u’d need 80 halb give or take. To kill 50 elite battle elephant u’d need 100+ halbs. The problem is u don’t have the pop for this amount of halbs which means ur not cost effective anymore cause he can trample damage u to death.

The Turks got indirectly nerfed after AOK. According to steggy_dinosaur in AoK there was the Hand Cannon Tech (450 Food, 200 Gold; needed to unlock Hand Canoneer) and Bombard Cannon Tech (500 Food, 250 Gold; needed to unlock Bombard Cannon).

Now in 1.0c or FE Turks save 600 Food, 712 Wood, 250 Gold (total 1562 Resources)

In AoK they saved 1075 Food, 512 Wood, 475 Gold, 200 Stone (total 2262 Resources)

So because they eliminated these technologies they don’t save as much anymore compared to other civs. The Turks should get a buff to compensate for this indirect nerf.

Yeah, I know. For example, for me, Viet are a really good civ for a non rushing-map team-game. I know they won’t be the best in arabia, but I’ll like them not to suck that much on 1vs1. In which context would you use Viet?

Yeah, maybe you’re right. The thing is you’re always behind with Khmer or Viet. So, either you give them really powerfull post-imp units (since you manage to get to post imp) or you help them a little bit to survive early ages. Maybe it’s just my opinion, but they both struggle a lot before reaching imp.

Don’t get me wrong, I really enjoy them, I think they’re both really fun to play with, but I feel they can use a litte buff

The problem of Turks is not the enemy crossbowman line but the own expensive army.
Gunpowder, cavalry archers, cavaliers, camels…, Turks may demand more gold than Indian but they don’t have the tech like Sultans

If there are more eco buff for Khmer, an overpower plenty of full ballista elephants and battle elephants will come out more quickly in the early imperial age of 1v1 game or and late team game. Khmer need some non-eco buff to help them pass their weaker era and get up to the imperial age more smoothly. Maybe the houses have double, even triple HP to protect villagers completely.

Similar problems to Khmer, but the cheaper military buildings may be too powerful because it mean the player can absolutely train militias, archers and scout cavalries more early than other players. Maybe give them free upgrade from the skirmisher to the elite one.

Malay is the only civ that can be used by TheViper to struggle for the battle against broken Cumans before. Infinite fish traps and goldless two-handed swordsmen can handle many sutuations, not to mention the harbors.

I would love a tech for the Turks that replaced the Gold Cost on CA with Food Cost, making them a Trash Unit. You would need to remove Heavy Cavalry Archers from their tech list though.

I just enjoy the idea of making regular units into Trash Units.

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Viet atm is never a go-to-civ in 1v1 cause it’s not part of top tier. That doesn’t mean u are screwed if u get them through random civ. They can be very good vs archer unit civs (mongol, vik…) on land map for example. If u can get the rattans out they can be a pain for ur enemy 11

That said, there’ll always be bottom tier civs. If u were to buff a civ the reason would have to be to lessen the gap between top tier and bottom tier, not due to someone thinking they have some weakness and this MUST be fixed.

Always wonder why saracen don’t make these lists as the only thing they’ve got going for them in feudal +1 attack for archer vs building. The market bonus doesn’t really come into play unless you did bad balance of eco.

Compare that to khmer who could potentially go up without a barrack and go straight for stable cause u don’t need the spearmen in first place (unless u want to drush/maa). That’s 175 wood + 25wood of villtime saved :slight_smile:

Watching Hera play, I don’t think eco has to be bad to use the market. Keeping in mind, stone mining is one of the fastest initial gathering rates in the game, allowing you to skip farming to age up.

That said, there’ll always be bottom tier civs. If u were to buff a civ the reason would have to be to lessen the gap between top tier and bottom tier, not due to someone thinking they have some weakness and this MUST be fixed.

Always wonder why saracen don’t make these lists as the only thing they’ve got going for them in feudal +1 attack for archer vs building. The market bonus doesn’t really come into play unless you did bad balance of eco.

Compare that to khmer who could potentially go up without a barrack and go straight for stable cause u don’t need the spearmen in first place (unless u want to drush/maa). That’s 175 wood + 25wood of villtime saved :slight_smile:

Ohh, I want a buff for them because I think they’re bottom tier. I don’t want them to bit the best civ ever, just a playable one. I think vietnamese have a really good imp and post imp playing, as I said, but they’re a little bit difficult to manage up to that point. Same goes for the Khmer (I love the strategy you said, going up with 18 pop, no barracs and scouts rush), but’s quite dangerous. Still good strat tough.

And sarrancens got a reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeal good buff. Which I like, because I love camel civs.

Maybe free Fletching / Bodking arrow/ bracer would do for Vietnamese. Just a little eco-buff to help them going through ages. And yes, rattan rocks!

You can counter archer line with cavalry line (turks trash light cav which is free upgrade for example) and/or siege rams (dont need gold to upgrade and unit is pretty cheap already); just patrol around archers, enemy will need to micro and focus fire 1 single unit or retreat.

Also bombard cannons do devastation if archers arent in spread formation, and like @Arcsocon said turks heavy cavalry archer

Rams, while effective to decoy fire, are not a solution in order to deal with the archers. Bombard cannons are really easy to doge. I think the only counter possible with turks is CA + hussars

Siege rams make most projectile units useless