All three new campaigns being set in the Viking Age is kinda disappointing NGL

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
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The “criteria” for adding a civ to AoE2 are already established: it must be (1) a people or ethnic group (2) from the Middle Ages (based on the campaigns, roughly 400 to 1600 AD) that (3) formed one or more kingdoms. This has been the case since Age of Kings was released (with the sole exception of the Byzantines), even though the developers have recently tried to break them at every turn.

Consequently, the aspects you noted while relevant to gameplay are either already implicit (if by “political development” you mean having a kingdom) or secondary, given that every kingdom is presumed to have an economy. As for military systems, few are truly unique in history; most successful technologies, tactics, and styles of warfare tend to be copied. Isn’t that the reason we have regional units? Or why the names of certain technologies and unique units like “Stirrups” and “Composite Bowman” sound so silly? Given this, I don’t see how military systems can serve as a criterion.

Also, Europe was indeed fragmented and unique in its own way, but it wasn’t the exception. Various states emerged around the world, each with its own peculiarities. It’s just that, for historiographical and sociopolitical reasons, Western popular culture places Europe (or rather, specific parts of it) under a massive magnifying glass compared to other regions, though this is slowly changing as scholarship advances.

Consider this example and tell me if it doesn’t reflect what I said above: the Songhai Empire was a medieval empire with an estimated population of 40–50 million (80,000 in Timbuktu alone) and a territory spanning 1.4 million km², surpassed in medieval Europe only by the Byzantine Empire. Furthermore, its impact on the region is comparable to that of the Carolingian Empire, having influenced various areas such as the economy, architecture, law, politics, science, warfare, religion, society, and so on. This means it held immense historical significance. Yet, how many people do you see here on this forum or on Reddit, Discord, or YouTube suggesting their inclusion in the game? Or rather, how many do you see doing so as frequently as those who suggest splitting up the Italians? Don’t you find that curious?

I know you aren’t proposing we choose between Europeans and non-Europeans, but, as others have already pointed out, AoE2 has a limit, even if we don’t know exactly where it is. It can’t be expanded forever, and some interesting yet lesser-known kingdoms might simply miss the chance to be depicted and made playable, which feels unfair. That’s why most people were deeply disappointed with 3K; we might not get another chance to see the actual Tanguts and Khitans, along with the Tibetans, and that is infuriating.

@smiki5five I haven’t forgotten what I promised, friend. It’s just that I’ve been really short on time lately and a bit disheartened due to real-life issues. But I still intend to share what I discovered about Nubians (especially since I have no one else to share it with besides this forum lol).

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According to @SchwarzeGarde49 the limitation is the following ;

The current graphical engine covers around 32k or so separate graphical entities, and iirc nearly half is filled already, mostly by architecture sprites that often feature 2-3 slots per building per age. So at a certain point if the engine isn’t rewritten and the limitations lifted, we’ll have to either choose between unique architecture and units for a fixed amount of civs, or evermore new civs reusing old graphic sprites.

He elaborates furthermore when asked about what precise limit of civs he presumes is the max capacity ;

My quick estimation?
If all current civs get an exclusive set of architecture, we’re basically already capped. Some compromises (like Franks and Burgundians can have one architecture) leaves us with 5-10 extra civs, unless even more chronicles civs come out. Without unique architecture, easily up to 80-100 total civs.

Unique units are easier as each unit takes only 5 slots. I think there’s like 20 or so regular units per civ, so 100 slots per civ, 50*100= 5000 slots, that can easily already be fitted into the existing game without much compromises.

Now, I have no clue if anything of what he states is accurate, but it appears to me that he knows what he is talking about - but then again I have no clue regarding any of this. So it makes sense to me, without me actually knowing if it makes sense. Does that make sense? 11

I’m somewhat familiar with the Songhai Empire, although I’ve only scratched the surface through my own reading. They are absolutely one of the African civilizations I think deserves representation.

Songhai and Mali are also not mutually exclusive. The Songhai succeeded Mali as the dominant power of the western Sahel, but they were distinct states with different ruling dynasties, political traditions, military systems, and historical trajectories. They can coexist perfectly well—just as Franks and Burgundians coexist in the game today, or as the current Romans and Italians coexist to represent different historical periods and identities.

Personally, I also find the history of the Sahara fascinating. We know that in the distant past it was a much greener and more hospitable region, supporting large human populations and civilizations long before the medieval period. Even today, archaeology continues to uncover evidence of settlements, trade routes, and cultures beneath what is now one of the world’s largest deserts. I wouldn’t be surprised if there is still much more waiting to be discovered beneath the sands.

There is also a school of thought—shared by many people, though certainly not the mainstream academic view—that human activity may have contributed more to the Sahara’s desertification than is currently believed. The prevailing explanation is long-term climatic change, but I personally find it plausible that extensive agriculture, deforestation, grazing, and other forms of land use over thousands of years may have accelerated or amplified the process. Whether that ultimately proves true or not, I think it’s a fascinating subject.

So I certainly have no objection to Songhai being added—in fact, I think they would be an excellent choice. My point has never been that Europe should come first regardless. My point has always been that civilizations should be selected because they bring distinct historical identities, military traditions, economies, political development, and gameplay—not because we are trying to satisfy a continental quota.

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You can check for yourself by opening the game*.dat file in AGE and adding more new graphic entities than 32767. File crashes.

Why (according to Google AI)

The Advanced Genie Editor (AGE) and the Genie Engine itself crash when exceeding approximately 32,000 graphic entries because of a signed 16-bit integer (short) overflow limit.

The Root Cause: 16-Bit Integer Limits

In computer programming, a signed 16-bit integer can only store values from -32,768 to 32,767.

  • The Engine Structure: The Genie Engine (which powers games like Age of Empires, Age of Empires II, and Star Wars: Galactic Battlegrounds) uses a signed 16-bit integer to assign ID numbers to individual graphics entries. [1]
  • The Overflow: When you add more than 32,767 graphic entries, the next ID pushes past the maximum capacity of a signed 16-bit variable.
  • The Crash: Instead of smoothly handling ID 32,768, the value wraps around into negative numbers (e.g., -32,768). Because the editor and the game engine cannot process negative graphic asset IDs, memory corruption occurs, leading to an immediate application crash.
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Thanks for enforcing the reality of this aspect of the game engine.

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Feel free to send me a private message or share it in the Saracen split thread (probably an even better option as more people can learn this way)!

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@VNDISPVTED It’s not just a matter of space for graphics, mate. I was referring to the saturation generated in players by the excess of civs and mechanics, many of them unnecessary gimmicks. As TommoChocolate recently said in another thread, this bloat has been going on for some time, but it has noticeably increased with 3K and TLC.

Yeah but unlike the Franks/Burgundians and Romans/Italians, the Malians and Songhai do not have related languages ​​and origins. A better comparison would be the Achaemenids/Macedonians. You can see how both come from different geographical origins in this video.

I also enjoy geography and find the Sahara quite interesting, especially after watching the Atlas Pro video about it. His strength isn’t history, but he’s great in geography.

You seem to have misunderstood what I said. I didn’t mean to imply that you object to the inclusion of the Songhai or that you think Europe should take precedence. I’ve already acknowledged that you aren’t proposing an “either-or” choice between European and non-European civs.

My point is simply that the inclusion of civs currently follows no particular logic (since the devs seem to be abandoning the original AoK logic) other than personal preference, which isn’t wrong in itself. However, that personal preference is often influenced by factors that go beyond the game, factors related to world history itself and how it was/is written.

But who exactly is proposing civs to satisfy a continental quota?

And you’re listing these aspects as inclusion criteria once again; can you explain what you mean by them? Because, as I said, I imagine that “political development,” whatever it is, is already implicit in any civ that is added, along with economy, military traditions, and historical identity.

And if by “gameplay” you mean mechanics and possibilities for new strategies and uses of units, that’s up to the developers to implement creatively; it’s not something intrinsic to any civilization. The vast majority of peoples in history fought with the same weapons: spears, bows, and horses; Did some have unique weapons? Yeah but their tactical roles were always the same. Even firearms, which were a major game-changer, were, in terms of tactical role, no more than a super-crossbow.

So I ask once again that you elaborate what you mean, as I may be missing something here and I don’t want to misinterpret your comments.

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This requires a much bigger overhaul of the game than I think you realize. Mostly all civs are painted with a Catholic/Orthodox reimagining. Vikings is no exception. I’m not against a complete revamp of most civs. Including removing the blacksmith from American civs, and reducing the navies of Steppe civs, south east Asian civs, native American civs, and many African civs to canoes, and variants of large canoes. Given a good paycheck I can tell you exactly how to make these civs genuinely cool, and representative of history. It would take some work, but be it for a future RTS or AOE2, the potential is there for something much cooler than anything we have so far.

What can I say, hire me and I can make you rich.

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Isnt this how Aoe4 is already?

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I just meant I want more civs from Asia, Africa and the Americas.

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AOE4 already has less of a playerbase than AOE2 does. It’s doing well below expectations for reasons completely unrelated to their attempt at making more diverse civs. AOE4 should have been huge, but there are a bunch of basic decisions that makes this not the case. Savable potentially, but the flop is very comparable to SC2. Everyone expected it to be way bigger than it was, and the initial interest was way bigger than the sustained interest. People want that type of game, but a bad execution will cut profits pretty fast.

Pay me well enough, and I’ll show you how to turn the tide. Not the kind of expertise I’m giving out for free.

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Why not make your own game then?or minimum learn modding and make a mod.

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Working on it. Something I can make in my garage just has a more limited scope.

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Yes, AoE 4 is still salvageable, but it needs many more civs and campaigns (at least double) than it has now…