Alright! Time to adress the OG old OP civs once at all!

[AbuzzJam4677680]

@PlumpDucklin

You want to keep Mayans 30% discount, on top of their existing eco? Or still nerf their other stuff?

I guess the compounded early nerfs would be enough

Nerf the early mayan archer discount and wood penalty to make it less oppressive in early game. But I dont prefer to nerf their UU and late game too hard.

[laserbear25]

For Britons I think removing the Imperial range bonus is a good idea. Change Yeoman to “Longbowmen can be trained from Archery Ranges; Towers +2 attack” instead of providing extra range (adjust range accordingly, Skirmishers extra range would have to be part of the Castle Age civ bonus). Team bonus needs to change, I’d say to Archery Ranges (and Towers?) cost -25 wood.

Chinese tech discount can just be nerfed to -5%/-10%/-20% or -15%, and start changed to start with +2 Villagers but -150f, -50w. Their identity is a wide tech tree. I also think they should get Hand Cannoneers.

For Mayans I agree with the archer discount and resource bonus changes, but that’s all. I think it’s better to make incremental changes rather than dramatic ones (although the balance changes really should be more frequent).

[UpmostRook9474]

I’m not sure what the Britons should do to be truly decent. The suggestions I’ve seen so far, other than nerfing team bonus, don’t convince me pretty well.

If there’s a chance to make a lot of changes to the Britons, I’d still love to see the Longbow and Elite Longbow replace the Crossbow and Arbalest directly at Archery Range as the unique upgrades for Archer. This way there won’t be a comparison between common Archer line and Longbow, and balancing should be easier.

If the new UU is Organ Gun, it would have better historical accuracy than being the UU of the Portuguese, and it can also bring a more accurate UU to the Portuguese by the way.

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Regarding the Chinese, it has been discussed in other threads that removing the Blacksmith tech is a bad idea that will erase their identity. You already said CKN is op, why do not you adjust it but adjust Blacksmith?

More feasible options:

• Remove Heavy Camel, or even whole Camel lines.
• CKN costs +5 gold.
• Elite CKN -1 secondary projectile.
• Rocketry only gives +1 attack to CKN.
• Tech discount changed to -10%/-20% in Castle/Imperial Age.

One or some of them might be helpful.

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Regarding the economy of the Mayans, I believe that the one that natural resources last 10% is very acceptable, or, perhaps, they can reduce the initial food by 50 for the extra 1 villager.

El Dorado HP boost shouldn’t drop so low as 25 in one go. This is, after all, one of their main strengths. I would try dropping to 35 first and see.

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Regarding the Turks, I can only be sure that increasing the cost of Artillery is the good one.
I won’t change their horses but I would like to try:

• Remove the bonus of extra health and faster training speed for gunpowder units.
• As compensation, Janissary gains more health and faster training.
• Make Gunpowder technologies discount the new team bonus.

Except Artillery, the Turk Hand Cannoneers and Bombard Cannon no longer have the stats advantage, but free Chemistry still makes them better than other civilizations.

[SMUM15236]

@SirWiedreich

OG Franks by the addition of Halb and Bloodline, Goths by Supplies, ~Gunpowder units by Condos, etc.

I’ll jump over the moon if new generic technologies are added into the game.

[DynasticPlanet5]

I have hang ups about changing the faster workrate team bonus for archery and Stable. If the issue is the civs themselves I’d hate to see the bonus wasted away into something that doesn’t match its counterparts.

If it’s about being too strong for the civs in question then maybe just new team bonuses and move archer and stable 20% workrate elsewhere? I’m really unsure but it would just look wrong to make a team bonus worth less because the holder and not for the team.

[SMUM15236]

@ZeroEinna

I honestly do not see the Britons are imbalanced

They are balanced in 1v1. But in TG, they are the most dominant civ for a decade or so.

@TungstenBoar

I would rather switch with other less useful archer and cav bonuses, so we buff other civs that are worse in team games

Probably a better idea. I was also thinking something similar and I even added Goths as well.

@AbuzzJam4677680

Remove the wall discount and give it to weaker civs

I liked this.

[MatCauthon3]

@DynasticPlanet5

If it’s about being too strong for the civs in question then maybe just new team bonuses and move archer and stable 20% workrate elsewhere?

Here’s my thing. since the game is more or less balanced around archery and cavalry units, with barracks units being support, 20% for barracks is fine, but 20% for archers and stables is not equal. so nerfing it to 10% still provides benefit (3 seconds on knights/light cav and 2.7 and 3.4 seconds on archers), while the faster training infantry units get a bigger benefit (20%) but still provides a good benefit without being ridiculous.

[DynasticPlanet5]

While I make no proposals, let’s say for sake of argument you move the Archery Range team bonus to a civ that isn’t as top tier, like say the Saracens. I’m not proposing giving Britons built in building shred on increased range archers mind you.

But let’s say the Saracens had the archery bonus, would it be as broken there instead of Brits? I don’t pretend to know anything because I don’t but would it still be too strong here?

To me it seems more the issues the civs that have them if I understand the argument correctly.

[SMUM15236]

@AbuzzJam4677680

Berbers have 15/20% stable discount. I think it makes more sense for archers to have bigger discount.

While I agree with this, you should also see their eco bonuses and tech tree.
Goths = Almost no eco bonus. Biggest discount on infantry. Yet lacks last infantry armor.
Berbers = Almost no eco bonus. Moderate discount on Cavalry. Still lacks Paladin.
Mayans = Two eco bonuses. Combined have one of the best eco in the game. Big discount on archer. No upgrades lacking on discounted unit.

@DynasticPlanet5

But let’s say the Saracens had the archery bonus, would it be as broken there instead of Brits? I don’t pretend to know anything because I don’t but would it still be too strong here?

To me it seems more the issues the civs that have them if I understand the argument correctly.

I think on Saracens hand, it will still be OP for having siege archer. Maybe try Vietnamese?

[DynasticPlanet5]

@SMUM15236

I think on Saracens hand, it will still be OP for having siege archer. Maybe try Vietnamese?

Considering in this hypothetical the team bonus is replaced, I don’t see generic full archery range being too overbearing.

[FurtherLime7936]

@AbuzzJam4677680

As long as their arbalest can outrange other archers, its hard for other archer civs to compete.

With 10 range the gap between brotons and other archer civs is reduced.

@AbuzzJam4677680

I agree Chinese is too versatile. But thats the point of cheaper techs. I think Chinese can survive without camel line.

Removing Heavy Camel or even the whole camel line won’t do nothing, while taking away balst furnace reduce the absurd versatility this civ has.

@AbuzzJam4677680

Berbers have 15/20% stable discount. I think it makes more sense for archers to have bigger discount. Yet, Mayans deserve early game nerf. Make the discount 15/30%, starting from castle age and only apply to xbow line. Remove the wall discount and give it to weaker civs, like Spanish. Maybe Give them early wood penalty.

Why an unit that’s already cheap to mass deserves an absurd discount with all upgrades available while other civs discounts are offset with some techs out? (Goths without Plate Mail, Huns without Ring Archer Armor or Malay without Bloodlines and 2 armor upgrades).

@TungstenBoar

Also, at that point Turks will just be paring for a worse, more expensive, Bohemian hand canoneer. They would suck.

In general I still dont like how extreme you tend to be with nerfs

@SMUM15236

These 2 I agree with. Keep Janissary as it is. If they lose their range advantage, there is basically no reason to train them.

It will still be a good unit because you don’t need chemistry to get it, Jannissaries are simply too opressive in castle age. While In Imperial they fall hard and don’t scale that well.

[TungstenBoar]

@FurtherLime7936

It will still be a good unit because you don’t need chemistry to get it,

No it wont. Just compare it to Bohemian HCs who are already rarely seen.

• Less accuracy
• Higher cost
• Needs a castle (which is more expensive than getting a cheap bohemian university and researching the tech, and its not even that big of a time save)
• Bohemians are overall better before imperial age
  Jannissaries would be a joke. They would need a massive buff in other aspects

[SMUM15236]

@FurtherLime7936

Jannissaries are simply too opressive in castle age. While In Imperial they fall hard and don’t scale that well.

That’s the nature of gunpowder unit in general. This is same with conquistador, OG and even Hussite Wagon.

[UpmostRook9474]

@FurtherLime7936

Removing Heavy Camel or even the whole camel line won’t do nothing

It does do things. Forces the Chinese to switch to use Spearman line, rather than being able to train directly from built Stables and benefit from the researched cavalry armor. Spear doesn’t have the speed of Camel, so it’s slower and more conservative in application, which is also a noticeable difference.

@FurtherLime7936

taking away balst furnace reduce the absurd versatility this civ has.

Versatility is what the Chinese should be. This is the greatest premise of this civilization.

@FurtherLime7936

(2 extra villagers, extra food on farms and cheaper techs, plus OP UU)

Since you have pointed out the problem from the beginning that UU is too OP , you should propose changes to UU, but you have no suggestion for it and you want to kill the identity of Chinese.

[Gaudio3342]

My take on Britons: They need a non minor rework. 3 problems: Range, team bonus, and the most important, overlapping roles with the UU.

@FurtherLime7936

No more extra range in Imperial Age

This is a problem, but not quite the problem. The fundamental concept of +1 range in castle age is flawed. In 1v1 it renders mangonels useless and skirmishers to some degree if archers are microed properly. It’s extremely frustrating to play against. Furthermore, the +1 range in imperial means that longbows are a just a slightly better briton arbalester. Same unit in concept. That’s plain bad design.

If it were for me I would try to scrap the idea of the archer line having more range and leave that role to the Longbowman.
In compensation the regular archer line could benefit of an increased bonus for archery range (+30% faster instead of +20%? or even higher?) not as a team bonus, but rather as a civ one. Yes crossbows are now much worse in castle age, but with an increased production speed since feudal age they could take the lead in feudal and try to seize it to transition to longbows.

The team bonus could be something else. Idk. Crossbow and Arbalester upgrade 25% cheaper?.

@FurtherLime7936

Chinese. Franks. Mayans. Turks.

Disagree with mos of these. The franks HP bonus is the only one I like. The rest are too drastic for civs that are overall well designed (unlike britons). Just need nerfs. Maybe taking away one of the bonuses and increase another in compensation.

[DynasticPlanet5]

Would any civ at all be getting faster archery ranges then? It just feels wrong to see all the other buildings with workrate teams bonuses except archery

[TungstenBoar]

Magyars or Portuguese

[DynasticPlanet5]

For Magyars it might be too much to give them too good an ability to transition to knights or archers. Porto would be great replacement just make team games start with vision

[TungstenBoar]

Magyars archers sucks snce you have practically no eco bonus when using them so I think an archer bonus would just make them less dull

And Porto is for that reason

[Pulikesi25]

Amazing set of changes especially Mayans, very well thought. I think 33% gold cost return might actually end up being a buff for Franks because of the amount of value you can potentially get at 50 gold but I could be wrong. I’d rather prefer the removal of extra hp as a default bonus, giving them bloodlines and changing Chivalry as Knight line get +12 hp and produced 25% faster.
Hope some or all of these make it into the actual game.

@TungstenBoar

This wont change anything and will reañly hurt their identity. Bad idea

You could say its insufficient but not a bad idea. Losing plate barding armor or bloodlines as someone else mentioned would actually be a better nerf. And no it doesn’t hurt the identity of an “archer civilization”

@TungstenBoar

10 range?

9 because his proposal reduces base range of castle age Janissaries to 7 which is also fine for elite units.

@SirWiedreich

I think 1 or 2 of the Maya nerfs would be okay (especially Archer discount nerf), but doing 4 at once…just seems more like it’s intended to punish the Mayans for having been strong for so long, rather than optimize balance.

Its actually a nice set of balance. When a civ has 5 very strong bonuses, nerfing just 1 or 2 would have very little impact.

@UpmostRook9474

El Dorado HP boost shouldn’t drop so low as 25 in one go. This is, after all, one of their main strengths

+40 is a LOT compared to the bonuses their fellow eagle civs. It makes them nearly impossible to kill with most other units. Imagine if Inca eagles had +3/+3 armor or Aztec eagles had +9 attack. And this huge hp bonus is on top of having huge discounts on archers, strong eco, probably the best skirms in game and an amazing UU.

@UpmostRook9474

I’d still love to see the Longbow and Elite Longbow replace the Crossbow and Arbalest directly at Archery Range

Extreme buff. You do know that longbow have +1 attack right?

@SirWiedreich

My point is that the nerf stick isn’t the only tool available

True but when a unit itself is fine but terribly strong only for a particular civ, the only way to address that is directly nerfing the magnitude of bonuses that civ gets. From the past, Viking docks discount, Huns CA discount, Italian dock tech discount, to name a few.