It’s like giving archers an extra 3 “true damage” stat, that’s the problem. You’re giving a trash unit a damage stat that cannot be mitigated by armour, thus making it extra effective against armoured targets when that’s not the role the unit is supposed to fulfill.
Still, the point I was trying to make is that one of the new civs gets a straight improvement over a regular unit, while the other new civ gets the strongest ranged unit in the game reworked into an expensive spearman. Give me streltsi anyday. Give me English HC with the network of castles buff. Hell, give me a regular HC with no buff at all. In fact, you’d be better off having your Military Academies producing regular archers to support your knights.
It almost never matters currently as I said. It would only matter if the units had enough armor that they met/exceeded the archer’s base damage so they were only receiving 1 damage.
With equal blacksmith upgrades in Ages III and IV, before poison:
Man at Arms: receive 3 damage
Knights: receive 3 damage
So it only comes into play at all (for 1 extra damage) if the units have all 3 armor upgrades and the archers have no attack upgrades.
Even the English unique tech Armor Clad is only +2 so it still doesn’t matter in that match up with even upgrades.
It just helps a bit IF the Malians have researched the poison, AND they haven’t researched their other regular upgrades, AND the opponent has researched all the armor upgrades. This is also in lieu of them having crossbows which is usually the ranged anti armor unit.
Don’t get me wrong it’s a good upgrade, plus 3 damage is great, but the stacking is just how it manages to do anything at all, and the armor ignoring rarely matters at all.
i think janis are fine. people are confusing the issue of malians being OP, and thinking ottos are too weak in comparison, when it is simply that malians need to be toned down.
janis are boosted by mehters, yet the comparisons dont seem to factor this either
or their extra utility being able to repair siege. additionally people like to make poor comparisons against other civs, that cant produce janissaries for free, 5 at a time. additonally HC can only start being massed from imperial age. it doesnt matter how good a unit is, if you cant produce it soon enough, but its easy for detractors to simply make blind comparisons and ignore all these other factors
people also seem to completely ignore the massive otto eco from trade on top of all these free units. if (when) they make ottos stronger in the early game, they are going to have to tone down their late game. and we simply end up with yet another scenario where uniqueness is sacrificed so the vocal minority can get their way
I have gravitated toward the same strat, except with knights instead of sipahi. The early market income and late game trade income with keeps is my favorite landmarks. And vizier points for the cool bonuses
i cant wait for someone to actually do a dps comparison on janis so you guys can finally stop whining
because you can dump towers everywhere? every single inch of the map your units want to move to, has the network buff? nevermind this actually costs res and idle time, it hurts mobility.
janis with mehters fire (anywhere on the map) at 1.53 vs 2.15 on generic HC. they also cost a fraction of the cost 160 v 240, and mass from castle age, instead of waiting for imperial
and finally… per res spent jani raw dpm is 6.8 vs 4.9
vs MAA janis do 4.9 dpm vs 3.95 on generic HC so they’re literally more cost effective, and available sooner, and this is before even factoring dmg vs cav
Some people, for whatever reason, seem to have very emotional attachments to how they perceive a certain unit should be - in this case, basically that Janissaries should be some attack-move power unit. So from the start they are not interested in the nuances of how they actually can work and only look at them out of context.
Bro you actually think Jannisaries are in a good position? Literally every single pro player has already said they suck. BeastyQT went for the classic “they’re underwhelming”. DeMuslim went with “They need a rework”. I kinda doubt pros are “whining” because Joe from plastic league said they’re actually good. I mean, you’re literally trying to say that the network of castles buff is somehow hard to get “to every inch of the map” when it’s just… 100 resources for an outpost. Bro a Jannisary is 160 resources and you’re trying to argue they’re cost-efficient. You even paying attention to what you’re writing?
But at the end of the day, you just need to look at any pro matchup to see what state the Ottomans are in. You guys keep paying 100 gold for your ranged gunpowder spearman. I’ll wait for the innevitable rework.
Some guys like jans useless current state. I only ask them why are jans special? Do they win the game for ottomans? No. They … up every battle. We see that you tube videos. Pros dont choose Jans. I am not pro but I believe their words. Jans arent supporter force, they are main force of Ottoman army. Are maa in hre supporter unit? No. Hre maa can win the battle but jans dont.Hre have unique tech.Jans dont.Devs have made worst jans like ottoman landmarks
bro they attack faster but you are forgeting when they attack faster with low damage they hit the armor of the unit more so your math is wrong i hope you understand what im trying to say actually even without that it is lower dps how did you calculate this?
More of these pro players are starting to realise potential behind the Janissaries and how to use them correctly, realising they are actually capable units.
Another parallel to this is the RUS. in the beginning the RUS was rated as some of the Bottom-tier Civs, and is now currently among the TOP tier Civs, despite barely getting any changes at all to them.
Simply because people, and even the PRO gamers Learn more about new methods that can play on the Civ’s strenght really well.
So I would take First Impressions, from anyone, be it plastic league to worlds best competative players, with a grain of salt.
Pros most time only play on feudal or under the mark of 15 minutes when jans and great Bombards are not present , devs have said many times that ottomans lack economic bonuses to over counter their massive comeback at imperial age with massive free armies …
The words of the pros mean nothing to me , they’re just players like us , that have a bigger rank and bigger influence but still , they like to play every civ the same way when maybe civs need to be played diff in order to win
You literally quoted the part where I mentioned FU MAA. why would I mention 2 different dpm’s if I wasn’t factoring armour?
I did factor armour and thus the closer value.
FU = fully upgraded
I understand you might not know me. But I’m like the math boss of the aoe2 forum (I’m just kidding) but I do factor s**t and then don’t bother to mention what I’ve factored, because I assume everyone is on the same page, and I detest hand holding
No never…Jannizars never became main force of Turkish army. They have Cavarly for main force…Jannies were elite forces to protect royal family generally. Yet in army Cavarly always were main powerhouse of Turkish army.
But as 9/10 pros saying the same ''Jans are SUPER UNDERPERFORMING in the game. Thats all. Main issue is their being taken +%50 ranged dmg taken ( Tower shots, xbows, mangonels , springards , bees, ############### archers , hand cannoneers , archers ,arbalesters ,Cannons,Javalin throvers etc…)
Also they are not cost efficient counter against Light Cavarly as well given the fact that they have 3.5 stupid range also when surrounded heavy cavalry beats them too…So Jans need to hit and run against Heavy cavalry or light cavalry in that issue they cant protect Great Bombards as well…They die against MAA’s too.
Just a crap unit . And i can say most useless unit in game. I can only use jans in early castle age mixed with some xbows to be able to one shot KTS when they are low in numbers. But after that very small window…Jans ? no hell no EXACT useless unit…I dont understand people calling jans being super good awesome perfect unit omg OP 11 xD They die so easyly …Its like even if u spit on them they would die xD 11
Mehters are easy to be taken down also in many circumstances as well…In and out Jans are crappiest trash unit that cost 100g xD
Some people think that they know math xD But they ignore 3.5 range difference between 5.5 11 !!!
Also they don’t know about oeverkill stuff…Also they think your oppoment will only send KTS against Jannies…
BIG ISSUE is Battle field is crawling with many projectiles after all. And u cant babysit your 15-20 jannies single mango shot perishes them …Few archers are ERASING them… Surrounding cavalry tremples them…Direct confort of MMA scares them leaving GB offguard…Thats why ottos win rate is about %10-15 now…I watched many games and spotted true issue here.Jans are GARBAGE…If they will be that garbage then at least their gold cost should be like 40 or 35 for a good reason …
Fun Fact : Simple generic Hand Cannoneer deals 74 dmg to Jans … Nearly one shot !! ( Yea jans are so great xD )
How about 3.5 range vs 5.5 range ??? How about jannis being fragile as ##### (seriously) ? How about over kills ? ?
Hope they dont change ottos and you share your ottoman personal win rate above %40 xD 11
I bet you wont even touch ottos yourself xD
I dont agree. Thousand of Janissary werent supporter unit. I agree only they guard the Sultan but this wasnt only their role. Supporter units cant hold battle line. Supporter unit couldnt guard royal familiy. Supporter units are generally light units. Jans use swords like yatagan, they are heavy unit but they first used guns in Europe. When Jans didnt want to train themselves and they emerges riot in the empire ( after 1600), they are corrupted and Ottoman Empire was starting to lost wars. Age of 3 have accepted Jans as heavy unit.
They are not cost efficient against Light Cav given the fact that light cav deals bonus dmg to jans and jans cant hit and run them ( also they have to protect great bombards as well )
None do so.It is too much for crap jans to do so.
Nope they are NOT ! When even massed cavalry comes in direct comfront ( which is not likely ) you have to hit and run otherwise ur jans having very low hp and zero armor fragile as ######## will ger trampled easily . If you try hit and run say good bye to ur 900g costing GB’s. They are not superior on this … They do that job ‘‘BARELY’’
Only cool unit that humbly carry the whole crap civ on their shoulder xD 11
OMFG please dont say that !!! Simple Hand Cannoneer can fight against almost everything !.. Simple HC deals 74 dmg to your super strong (!) Jannizar almost 1 shotting that crap.
Lol no…Even if they have that mass to counter cavalry then simple mango shot or other cheap few archers could erase whole ur janns in the blink of an eye.
Have you ever heard LONGBOWMEN ??? u better be aware of it. Or Mali skirmishers ??? Or simplest humbe cheap archers ?
Win rate is around %10-15 xD Fearsome %10-15 xD 11 Good luck winning ur games as ottoman in pro gaming !
Good luck making it real…Even when u do so why the heck u need Jannies for ? Go mass 25 GB and KTS win the game.
Sorry but these things are kinda nonsense to me .
I don’t know too much about Ottoman history. But as far as i know Janizars aren’t Turkic at all. So it would makes no sense to me that an empire’s whole strength in military rely on other civilizations (Slave) people rather then their own 11. I don’t know man. I think Turkish light/heavy cavalry were most firece fighting force in Ottoman army. As many European archives says so. When i checked on google it says Ottomans start losing wars after their Timar system (which they use to produce Heavy Cavarly into battle) is broken . Also Ottomans lost their advance in military technology after 1600’s and they fell behind Europeans. Also jannizars were a one of the biggest problem in their history it says. Im a liar of Google
But i dont care much about history here. In game Jans are total crap that is for sure. They should be reworked or their gold cost should be like 30-40 max.
IMO unless we’re making reference to expertise, last i check pros are expertise on strat and execution and multi tasking and overal management of a game to victory. So when referring to “this guy says it’s hard to win with…” or “i would do ut this way to achieve a TC AT blah time…”
I think those are the scenarios we can properly reference these pro that make and execution efficient strategems.
But when we talking math? Statistical data? How the game functions…these are concepts and objects WE able ppl should be able to reference DIRECTLY from game data.
For example of how pros can be wrong, and its not a bash but it is an example. Beasty said that OTTOMANS military school takes 4+ min payback it’s 250 resource cost. While this statement is situationally true it is NOT always true. To be #### ### (edit: why is it doing that? Be fair) context was making a military academy upon aging to feudal or as aging to feudal. Regardless his statement is not always true! Why? Bc payback of military school is dependent on what units you que and if you’re in a blacksmith buff or not. In the context of just hitting feudal or transitioning to feudal rather, if you que first s spearman (worth 80 resources and takes 67s no bsm buff) then as the 2nd unit you que either a spahi (130 resources 107s) or a mehter (180 resources 126s); either direction taken yiu net you MORE than 250 resources returned by trained units IN LESS THAN 4MIN (spear + spahi = 2min 54s NOT 4min or spear+mehter = 3min 13s also NOT 4min).
The relevance should be clear!! Data, facts, are not subjected to professional opinion, either it is or is not (to the best of our ability to observe it).
Last point, in the BEASTYQT ottoman build order video? He goes to make the trade landmark and opts to fill the 4 remaining traders slots. Well traders cost 120 res (60w 60g) but in the landmark they only produce 28gpm which put their return on invest period beyond…4min! But wasnt this his issue with building the military Academy???
In conclusion, what the pros say IS GOSPEL when they’re talking about strategem; they are literary the bestest at it. But for math and data please reference the game data directly. The closets correlation i can consider is if game data on paper says something BUT it requires gamers to interact and or execute the tasks optimally THEN there is room there for expert players to say "EZZ to implement " “too hard” “i cant micro this unit” etc etc.
