Anyone bothers with Cav Archers as Hindustanis?

Despite lacking Parthian Tactics.

I literally just won a game 2 games ago with them.

So yes, I do use them. Wouldn’t mind if they had Parthian Tactics, but still, they serve a purpose.

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Parthian Tactics is only a smidge better than RAA, due to the +2 vs pikes. HCA already have decent bonus vs pikes (+4) so it’s nice but lacking that extra +2 vs pikes doesn’t make them unviable.

Missing RAA doesn’t singlehandedly make a CA civ a bad CA civ and I would conclude the same about missing PT.

Thumb Ring and Bracer and HCA are all you NEED*. Missing any one of RAA, PT, Bloodlines, and Husbandry doesn’t really singlehandedly make CA unviable. If you missed a lot of those, then yeah your CA would start being lackluster, mostly squishy tho.

On paper CA are meant to dish out ranged support or pick off vills when it suits you, and to run away when it doesn’t. So tankiness, while always nice, isn’t really needed. A Civ like turks who have arguably the tankiest CA in the game, can really lean into CA being somewhat of a dmg sponge, but for most civs, losing out on a bit of tankiness won’t make or break your CA.

*Even that isn’t a 100% concrete rule. Persian miss out on bracer but have pretty good CA in the mid-game thanks to castle age PT. Cumans kinda get around missing bracer with the kipchak firing multiple arrows. Even Georgians missing Thumb Ring and RAA, is approximately compensated by their self healing cav, taking even less dmg when uphill, and Aznauri Cavalry UT allowing for 17% more units, which thanks to Lanchester’s Law means they’re about 37% more effective than the pre-aznauri mass of CA. Khmer only missing Thumb Ring so they can be situationally useful.

TLDR, So long as you have TR, Bracer, HCA, and three of RAA, PT, Bloodlines, and Husbandry, your CA are probably fine.

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Right. They are least necessary upgrade for CA. And speaking of having PT but not RAA, Bulgarians often use CA to pair with their mobile cavalry for pierce damage instead of scorpion.

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Agreed. Which is another subtle reason why I don’t think husbandry is a super big loss, just on it’s own. CA are faster than nearly any melee unit you’d pair with CA anyways. Yeah, you could always be faster, and any melee cav you’d pair with it would also benefit from husbandry, but you aren’t adversely affecting your comp because specifically your CA isn’t 10% faster.

Bloodlines is probably the most generally helpful. armor helps kind of situationally. a sufficiently strong or weak attack isn’t affected much, but more hp is always better. Even so tho if you were missing Bloodlines, but had everything else, I’d think your CA was still plenty viable. You’d just want to be a little more careful around enemy siege.

If I had to rank them I’d say

  1. Bloodlines
  2. Husbandry
  3. Parthian Tactics
  4. Ring Archer Armor.

I think reasonable minds could value the speed increase of Husbandry more than the hp of bloodlines, but I think the CA is pretty fast w/o Husbandry but pretty squishy w/o bloodlines, and it singlehandedly makes the unit far less squishy. Bloodlines improves hp by 33% but speed by 10%. Probably the most important of the “anti-squishy” techs.

Maybe you could bump up PT above husbandry cause of the bonus dmg vs pikes. If you have a CA + infantry comp then husbandry helps you cut your losses in a bad fight. if you have a cav + cav, that husbandry helps you maintain map control with more mobility. That’s why I put it above PT, but again I think reasonable minds could disagree.

Somewhat redundantly, TLDR PT is probably the second least important CA tech, so it’s fine if Hindustanis are missing it.

I’m now tempted to make a tier-list of civs based on how good their cavalry archers are…

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OMG yes. SOTL made a top five, but that was before DE. Tatars and cumans gotta be up there somewhere…and I’m very curious how Georgians compare as well. On paper their CA should be pretty bad given they’re missing thumb ring and RAA, but the Georgian elevation bonus, self healing cav, and aznuari cavalry allowing CA to take less pop space, makes for a very interesting comparison to other civs IMO.

You heard it here first folks, Cav Archers without Bloodlines are viable.

@OP: Hindustanis CA is viable, often these civs that have “good enough” CA like Hindustanis, Bulgarians, Lithuanians, have the option to play CA in those matchups where they are insanely effective, like vs Slavs or Teutons. They aren’t meant to be your best go-to unit, but rather something to pad the tech tree with variety.

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The real answer is obviously It Depends. If you want some quick raid or harass at enemy base and determined to retreat if you find any military, then picking husbandry is better. Also you have a risk of your opponent will pick it before you and now their knight can catch you up.

And now Japanese joined the chat.

Despite lacking Parthian Tactics, I would put the Vietnamese in the top 5 CA civilizations. The extra HP means that they are particularly frightful in the Castle Age, and free Conscription is very helpful.

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Am i the only one who thinks early CA aggression needs Thumb Ring front and center? 50 accuracy is brutal and this statistically doubles your damage output and thats before the rof boost

Very true.

Yes, though I’d meant for the list to be a post-imp, this civs ca vs that civs ca comparison, not a which techs do you get in which order, tho looking back I don’t think I’d made that explicit.

In the long run I think bloodlines is more impactful, once you have oodles of CA providing ranged support so they can better tank incidental dmg (maybe even be a bit of a dmg sponge if you have bloodlines, PT, and RAA (especially if your tatars with +1/+1 or turks with +20 hp)), but if your civ has both bloodlines and husbandry, then in castle age when you have more attention to micro, then husbandry is probably the better choice in that context, tho if you’re in castle age and you’re making CA and some other cav, then it probably flips again back to bloodlines as it benefits both units, tho in practice if you’re making CA you probably wanna commit to building your numbers, tho maybe your opponent isn’t making cav so a little speed isn’t going to help as much as 1/3 more hp…

As you said, it depends lol.

TLDR, in castle age it depends, in post imp bloodlines is probably better.

that being said I don’t think there’s any civ I’d consider a CA civ that is missing bloodlines. Koreans also miss PT and I think missing Bloodlines and (RAA or PT) is just too squishy to be a decent CA civ. Also why not just go for war wagon? Admittedly given the wood discount maybe it’d be an off meta castle age option, but I don’t think they hold up very well in imp. Compared to say Huns they have basically the same 20res discount but lack 20hp and +2 vs pikes. Vietnamese are kindof on the fence for me. they miss PT and bloodlines (EDIT I somehow, even after specifically checking, missed that Vietnamese do in fact have bloodlines.), but do have a civ bonus that gives them +12 hp.

Vietnamese are kindof around Khmer for me. Situationally they can be justifiable, but definitely not a go to.

Maybe there is an exception I’m forgetting, but if you’re missing bloodlines you’re typically also missing one of those other techs as well. So maybe the “a ca civ can be ok if it’s ONLY missing bloodlines” is academic since I don’t think any civ has that particular tech tree.

Yep, them too. I will say that the bonus just got narrowed, and honestly even before hand I think a lot of other civs had more generally applicable bonuses, but still.

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Your wish is my command :wink:

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They have Bloodlines. They are missing Blast Furnace for their Scout line which can affect HCA play later on.

Ya gotta stop lying. In 2 threads you keep saying no bloodlines, not cool

I checked before I made this statement to be sure. Somehow, even with checking to verify this singular point, I missed that Vietnamese, do in fact have bloodlines. It was not my intent to deceive.

Funny enough I did the same thing before TMR came out and people were theory crafting about Persians. I’d checked to make sure Bloodlines was a castle age tech, not feudal. It is actually feudal. IDK, when it comes to me and bloodlines, I can’t seem to get it right lol.

Once upon a time they did lack husbandry but that was patched in early

I think I got franks (with their 20% cav hp bonus) confused with vietnamese (archer +20% hp bonus). franks have very lackluster CA hp despite their bonus, not vietnamese as I’d confused myself to think. Vietnamese having lackluster ca hp would necessitate them not having bloodlines, then when I went to check to make sure, I probably opened the korean tech tree tab by mistake as I was also looking through their tech tree at the time.

Don’t worry, we are equally human.

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