April balance patch, Serjeants left out?

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
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in the newest patch, alongside the militia-line long awaited buff, most if not all infantry unique unit were buffed, sometimes heavily.

serjeants strikes me as the only major miss, since militia got 10 res cheaper, while serjeants cost was swapped but stayd the same, but their armor was reduced, resulting in a net nerf compared to the previous serjeants/militia comparison

in late game the main selling point of big pierce armor was hit by a nerf and compensated by a buff in melee armor only in the elitè version, but the attack stays the same, with the result that serjeants hit like a wet noodle compared to basically any other UU infantry, and without any serious bonus damage to anithing, or cool ability (like the samurai and other got)

overall, i feel like serjeants come out as nerfed by the whole situation, since there is less reason to get them over 14 attack cheaper champions

imho they desperately need at least +1 attack in both base and elitè form, or at least a bonus damage vs other infantry to give them a clear role separated from the generalist militia, otherwise they owerlap even more as the ability to build donjons is just non important in mid to late game where stone is used for castles only

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I thought you would open a thread about Italians as well.

Anyway, I wonder what is the reason for making Serjeant more melee-focused.

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No?

They remain a much better meat-shield for archers/siege weapons than the Champions.

Because now that the Champions are faster, the Serjeants would find themselves in a strange situation.

They were never cost-effective against the militia line because of their high cost in gold. So without changes, they would have been defeated by a significantly cheaper and faster infantry unit.

However, making such a unit faster (0.9 → 0.96) would have created problems for the line of archers (imo), hence the decision to remove 1 of pierce armour. So I guess in the end they decided to increase the speed to 0.95 (so they can’t chase the Champions) but much stronger in melee combat.

What? With Sicilians, as with Bulgarians, you build one castle. You have no reason to spam castles all over the map.

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Sicilians have access to squires. Serjeant can already chase off archers upon squires upgrade.

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I do not understand how my reasoning changes.

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What you mean no? It’s a fact…previously serjeants costed 5 res more then militia, now they cost more compared, and have -1 pierce armor, making it factually weaker then before compared to new improved militia, up until elite variant, where is debatable, and not even a clear cut

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Archer that are not good for siciliana and siete weapon that have a much better meat shield in free Gold cost halberdiers? This is a nonsensical argument sorry

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I’m quite fond of the italian changes really. I myself advocated for +1 armor to achers for ages while people called italian fine so glad to be proven right

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The changes nerf the YouPudding strats but make the unit better in Imperial, since it costs less gold.

The PA nerf is also to fix those strats, Serjeanst being unkillable by feudal archers and even Xbows was silly, also, Donjons will be available in Dark Age=guaranted Serjeants in Feudal right away.

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I’m not arguin against the PA nerf, i’m sayin the unit was not compensated fairly, particularly compared to new militia and to other UU of infantry civilizations

This why i sayd the unit should get +1 attack, since it was not even great before, asyde for wonky strategies like you sayd, but now it’s worse imho

Better in imp for sure, but sicilians still lack a strong go-to unit in late game since bonus damage nerf and hauberk Nerf, and now serjeants yes, they are going to tank in melee, but they still hit like a Castle Age unit with their pitifull 11 Attack, while basic champion sit at 14 and is cheaper and easier to mass

I think given the sicilian balanced state, and the buff to other infantry units and UU, a +1 Attack would be totally justified

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Why do you think gold is not worth more than other resources? We went from 50 food, 35 gold to 60 food 25 gold. That counts as a victory in my book.

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Being able to build donjons in dark age means that you’ll be able to start pumping them out upon hitting feudal age. If the donjon was built forward, that would be especially deadly (assuming your opponent doesn’t notice and batter it down). Costing 10 more food in exchange for 10 less gold will make them harder to afford in feudal and early castle age, but is better in imperial age. Extra melee armor means that they’re even better in melee, but less ranged armor means it will be easier for ranged units to deal with them. However, higher movement speed will reduce effectiveness of kiting them (and make it easier to retreat into a donjon). I do question whether the movement speed of 0.95 is intentional or a typo.

I could see players building a forward dark age donjon and then following up with a forward feudal military building. In any case, I think Sicilians end up a fair bit more flexible (though I do think their late game would benefit significantly from BBCs)

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Yeah it’s also a big concern of mine, as there is literally nothing to stop that first donjon. Against the standard trushes you sometimes want to engage in a tower war because it’s negating crucial ressources. This would be impossible against a donjon that starts firing upon hitting feudal.

On the other hand the new serjeant stats are bland. They look like just a little bit tankier militias for 20 % extra cost. Their high pierce armor was their specialty - and i would have liked to keep this and when it’s really necessary to nerf target somethng other.

It’s weird to nerf the serjeants which IF only were an issue with the youpudding strat but at the same time add a feature which makes this strat even more appealing, especially the aggressive variant with building it forward. I don’t really get it, it’s a strange set of changes and tbh I would have preferred to do nothing to sicilians at all to this.

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Can’t agree more. Patch notes leaves a dev note

Developer Note: While Sicilians were already able to build Donjons to unlock Archery Ranges and Stables in the Feudal Age, the delayed timing was too restrictive for many strategies to be viable.

I think dark age donjons is actually more dangerous than other strategies. Even though Donjons can’t shoot arrows, there will be an area of resources getting denied upon feudal age.

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Again, I prefer to remove hauberk for Sicilians cavalier and getting back 50% resistance as we have Savar now…

I also agree that the compensation isn’t fair at all.

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Serjeant can already chase off archers after squires currently. 0.9 → 0.99

I don’t think the base speed increase create new problems for archers.

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On the other hand, a competent player will be able to scout things out and keep from being caught off-guard. Sicilian players will likely be able to make things work out (especially if they win a scout fight), but there will be counterplay options.

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I think current Sicilians just don’t have good melee answer to other infantry civilization as infantry civilization in the late game. They don’t have good Arbalesters, and Siege composition is hard to get into. Their Champion with bonus damage reduction is merely just fully upgraded, nothing special in melee combat, and people never produce them. Elite Serjeants mostly don’t trade efficiently against other infantry units since they are too costly in terms of gold, even against regular Champion. In the late game, of course, gold becomes an issue. Disclaimer: I also proposed that they receive +1 base attack long time ago.

However, let’s do math how New Serjeants perform in Imperial Age.

Current Elite Serjeant vs Current Champion:

• Serjeant kills Champion in 7 hits
• Champion kills Serjeant in 9 hits

New Elite Serjeant vs New Champion:

• Serjeant kills Champion in 7 hits (same as before)
• Champion kills Serjeant in 10 hits (Serjeant tanks one more hit which is obviously impactful in mass battle)

Let’s take a look at another infantry unique unit which will also get buffed, Woad Raider

Current Elite Serjeant vs Current Elite Woad Raider:

• Serjeant kills Woad Raider in 8 hits
• Woad Raider kills Serjeant in 8 hits as well

However, Woad Raiders will always win in mass battle since they are so fast, leading them to take better engagement, although they have slightly less number due to their total cost. But again, Serjeants cost much more gold!

New Elite Serjeant vs New Elite Woad Raider:

• Serjeant kills Woad Raider in 8 hits (same as before)
• Woad Raider kills Serjeant in 9 hits (Serjeant will tank one more hit which makes them win either in 1v1 or mass battle)

Against trash units?:

• Current Serjeant receives 4 damage from Hussar, 3 damage from Halberdier, 1 damage from Skirmisher

• New Serjeant receives 2 damage from Hussar, 1 damage from Halberdier, 1 damage from Skirmisher

Keep in mind, their gold cost is cheaper than before. They also become much tankier against low damage gold units, such as Throwing Axeman, Karambit Warrior, Kamayuk, etc., even against units with average attack

Against archers? they are somewhat weaker at tanking hits, but they still have above average pierce armor than most of infantry. Hand Cannoneers don’t perform better than before since 1 pierce armor doesn’t make big difference. HC needs 6 hits to kill both current and new serjeant.

New Serjeant also has faster speed (0.95-1.045) than current Serjeant (0.9-0.99) that they can chase away foot archer more quickly (many ranged units have 0.96 speed) as compensation. It also means that new Serjeants can take better engagement than before like retreating, raiding, running away, forwarding Donjon, etc.

Although they have less pierce armor, don’t underestimate small speed buff. I did try micro testing 40 arbalesters against 60 champions. Microing against Celts champions with only +5% speed are harder than microing against Vikings ones.

This kind of situation happens in Castle Age as well, regarding Castle Age Serjeant already has tons of HP compared to other infantry unique units, and they are tankier against cavalry. Both current feudal and castle age Serjeants are already hard to deal with, especially with the timing upon advancing castle age as feudal Serjeants immediately become stronger.

How about comparing new Serjeant to new Champion against unit with average attack?

Current Champion & Current Elite Serjeant vs Elite Keshik (for example)

• Keshik kills current Champion in 7 hits, so current Champion hits back 6x (13x6=78 damage)
• Keshik kills current Serjeant in 11 hits, so current Serjeant hits back 10x (11x10=110 damage)

New Champion & New Elite Serjeant vs Elite Keshik

• Keshik kills new Champion in 7 hits, so new Champion hits back 6x (14x6=84 damage)
• Keshik kills new Serjeant in 15 hits, so new Serjeant hits back 14x (11x14=154 damage). Elite Keshik almost gets killed 1v1

The good sell is that they become much cheaper in terms of gold which makes that part fine for what they perform overall.

I’d say New Serjeants are fairly good and fine. Indeed, there is barely a scenario where Elite Serjeants fight Elite Woad Raiders or using both Champions and Serjeants against cavalry units. But it surely implies that new Elite Serjeants are better than new Champion. Stronger Champions are getting better, so are Serjeants. In many cases they are better.

However, problem will occur either small or big. It seems to be found in feudal or castle age since their food cost is high while food is more crucial/valuable in early ages than gold. We don’t know exactly how Sicilians will perform until the new patch comes out.

Giving them +1 base attack or same pierce armor as before doesn’t show that they are weak so that they need it. But it makes them much better, considering their new stats and gold cost. Also, Serjeants can build and repair Donjon. It is their ability that no other infantry can do. It also implies that Serjeants also have two uniquenesses, they are tanky and they can build Donjon. There might be another uniqueness where Serjeants are the only infantry that can hoover around bases in early stages.

If then they are found to be useless in early stages, buffing their base attack or pierce armor can be considered as well, but new food eco bonus can be applied instead, such as each farm upgrade grants farmers +1 carry capacity or farmers carry +1/+2/+3 more food in feudal/castle/imperial age similar with the beta version of Sicilians. But let’s see first after the patch is released.

Ah, I also forgot that Militia-lines cost 50 food instead of 45 to somewhat help their early rush and balance their new buffs for some civilization which previously had supplies. On the other hand, Serjeants still have the same total cost while the gold cost is cheaper.