I think there are many easy ways to nerf archers significantly without changing the stats like range, damage.
It is just the will to apply these changes that is needed. Remember when Cavalry Archers were considered bad because of the moderate frame delay?
Imagine all foot archers Archers getting around 1 second frame delay (with 1.7 normal game speed that would be 0.588 seconds standing still before shooting) and there would be no more absurd hit and run micro against cav and also infantry could hit them far more reliable. That frame delay would show that they are aiming for a bit before shooting.
Then increase the collision size of archers which has been said so often and now they can finally be hit far more easily. This also makes dodging the mangonel shot so much more difficult.
Also make sure that they can’t walk through each other when they make a 90/180° turn but instead the entire pack stays in the same formation and moves into that new direction as one - not moving through each other.
That fixes the 1 tile 50 archers problem thanks to patrol instantly.
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This is 38327272. post about how op xbows are and i will say the same thing 3773732. time : Just increase the unit size of archers so 287373 archers can not stack in one tile and give a chance for engage to opponent.
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Meanwhile knight civs still dominate arabia on the ladder…
agree on this, but do not think frame delay or others nerf are required. this change will make them harder to mass and later on their usual timing, and would fix their abismal upgrade cost for the power you gain.
other side things to do would be keep on improving melee pathing and maybe make mangonels projectile a bit faster or harder to dodge in general
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Archer meta needs to be nerfed asap, I am getting bored very fast of playing vs FULL Crossbow early Castle age EVERY game. Admittedly, later on, civs transition into something else most of the times, but when even civs like Lithuanians or Burgundians open Crossbow these days, imo that’s a signal that something is wrong.
The thing is, Knights isn’t even a bad unit, in fact it’s the apex predator of (early) Castle age, the fact that people are discouraged from opening Knights this much is really telling.
I might as well open blind Skirms these days and transition into boom + few Knights vs Mangonels given how guaranteed it is to go vs Crossbows these days.
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Agreed
Hopefully with the Devs being more brave with the last set of changes we’ll finally see a change with archer/xbow
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As a revisit to this thread I would also like to suggest palisade walls having 6 pierce armor in the castle age, instead of 5, to halve the damage they take from crossbows.
In addition to that, an accuracy nerf will be a plausible solution, from 80/85% for archers/crossbows, to 65/75%, because as noted by Spirit of the Law in numerous videos, practical accuracy is usually a lot higher than the percentage we see in the stats.
Nerfing the frame delay will make the unit not as fun and smooth to engage with, which will have too big of an impact on multiplayer balance and the overall feel of the game, therefore, it isn’t something one should consider on prima vista.
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I think significant part of the problem is how expensive crossbows’ intended counter unit – elite skirmisher. Pure unit price (25f/35w) is ok. But upgrade price is insane:
- 250f/150g - for two armor upgrades
- 230w/130g – elite skirmisher upgrade.
I think elite skirmisher upgrade cost should be 100w/100g. Wood is very valuable resource in early castle age. Because you build TCs, farms, university, etc. Reducing wood cost will make them much more viable choice.
Another possible solution is changing crossbow upgrade cost from food/gold to wood/gold or even food/wood. This should slow down economy development (TCs, farms) and military development (monastery, ballistics) for crossbow player.
Definitive Edition made the Elite Skirmisher Upgrade more expensive than it was before. Thats the Change log.
Next to no more lag in definitive edition which made micro far more powerful this nerf to upgrade cost was another buff to the archer line which was also of the reasons why archers are so dominant at the start of castle age.
I definitely agree that the elite skirmisher upgrade cost should be brought in line with the crossbow upgrade cost.
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