Are Burgundians OP?

Aside from the Gold crown tech, which is good in high elo games and very polarizing, even I as a 1150 noob feel that I have it too easy when I get not only discounted Double Bit Axe, but also ONE AGE EARLIER. Likewise planting Farms in Dark Age gives me a better food income and a much smoother transition. And teching into Cavalier is so easy, for half cost as well.

I am by no means a good player, but I always feel that it’s easier (at my elo) to win with Burgundians. I just need to turtle a bit, make some defensive units (like Skirms), and then I have such a Castle Age powerhouse that it’s nearly impossible to stop me.

They are quite strong right now, but not invinicible certrainly.
Flemish revolution needs a rework mainly.
You can expect a small nerf next patch.


ok, but compare for example to Magyars (a mid tier ish civ):

  • Forging we can sort of pass it as an eco bonus even though it isn’t since opening Scouts is counterable more with micro than unit choice in early Feudal. I am trying to be generous here and deliberately stretch and in short let’s say this is a 150 food head start (value of Forging) even though it’s obviously not as good as having outright 150 food in your bank.
  • -15% on Scout line is a situational combat bonus (not eco bonus), worth mostly in Feudal (in Castle, Scouts fall off heavily) and let’s say you make an average of 5 Scouts in Feudal, it’s a 60 food bonus, it’s nice but nothing major though it helps you also get to Castle Age a bit faster.

The rest of the bonuses Magyars have are situational and relate to either late game or very specific unit comps (e.g. Cav Archers), or both.

So in short, Magyars until Castle get like 200 food bonus more or less.

Now compare to Burgundians:

  1. 50 food saved on Double Bit Axe
  2. in DARK AGE. You can tech into this with some 12 Villagers compared to the average 21-23 of other civs. Let’s say that you have 7 Lumberjacks working (5 first and then you move 5 late in Dark Age to wood so let’s say 7), with the early bonus that’s 8.4 effective workers, if you tech into this at something like 14 vills and go up with 21, that’s almost 180s of bonus compared to when other civs get it (plus Feudal Age uptime but let’s discard that for simplicity as I don’t remember what it is now exactly). Basically, you get 1.4 extra villagers working 3 minutes on Wood, I’ll let you calculate how much wood that is but iirc wood gather is like 0.37x1.4x180 which is approximately 93 wood, TL;DR: the tech advantage from Dark Age gives you an extra hidden ~93 wood acquired solely due to teching early here
  3. 37.5 food from the discount on Horse Collar. Here you tech at about same time as other civs (a bit earlier) and the 2 min or so early on this tech means you have a smoother transitioning into Feudal with no need to force drop resources, move villagers around etc.
  4. Bow Saw is obviously insane, again 75 food saved here but the eco boost this tech gives you is insane compared to Dark Age because here you have more villagers on Wood as well.
  5. Wheelbarrow is normally a desirable tech to get in Feudal Age, but really awkward to get into due to high cost, for Burgundians this is no problem though so you can do Wheelbarrow in Feudal and then click up as opposed to doing it in early Castle (preferable since the bonus works as you are going up and not after)

In short, Burgundians get about ~500 of free resources through their tech advantage, that’s EARLY resources that are more valuable as well. Furthermore, while primarily a cavalry civ, they can play an OK Crossbow opening until mid-Castle Age because even though they lack Thumb Ring, this tech is fairly expensive even for Castle Age economies and as such it is sometimes skipped or acquired very late (early Imp even).

Cavalier opening is obviously insane also, instead of paying 150/100 for Bloodlines +20 HP, you pay 150f 150g (so a mere 50 more gold) to basically get free Blast Furnace as well (Castle Age Burgundian Cavalier is equivalent to FU Knight but with +2 attack). As we all know 2 extra attack in Castle Age can be fairly decisive.

In short, Burgundians have about as many strats as other civs early game (they can go Archers or Scouts into Knights, compare to say Mongols you see they also have Scouts/Knight or Mangudai), but a MUCH better eco bonus (if we measure by resources, they get far more than a comparable civ - Magyars).

Normally the game has civs that are slow explode later in the game (e.g. Byzantines), and conversely civs that have a good start fall off a bit later (e.g. Mayans can start falling off late Castle/Imp). Burgundians though is strong throughout imo, strong in Dark Age, insane in Feudal, top tier in Castle and maybe only decent in Imp (which is still more than many civs can claim anyway).

and yet it set you back 50 wood. to put it into perspective, when your opponent has chopped 200 wood, you’d have chopped 240, which means technically you’re still behind him in wood brought in.

i almost never have to throw down farms before grabbing horse collar. so the only real advantage here is the food saved.

but again it costs 100 wood, which even if you are at a 20% income faster then your opponent, until you’ve gathered 600 wood, you’re effectively behind your opponent in total wood.

except you can get bloodlines while going up to castle age, and even if you don’t, and wait until castle age, it researches in half the time, which means you are still at a numbers advantage over the burgundians player.
meanwhile cavalier takes 100 seconds to research, and while researching it, the burgundians players knights are inferior to his opponents knights by 20 health, and the opponent having the time to crank out 3 more knights then the burgundians player has cavaliers.

Burgundians are very strong, no doubt, and definitely need a nerf, but they don’t need a big nerf, and their eco advantage isn’t as big as you think it is.
especially considering you are comparing to a completely generic civilization. how many civs have no eco bonuses?

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I am going to admit that I like the Burgundian build overall. They have an excellent left hook through their earlier, and cheaper Cavalier, backed with the stamina of a top tier economy. They maintain this through the early Imperial Age with a dirt cheap Paladin upgrade, but deteriorate as time passes due to a lack of bloodlines, or other civilization specific cavalry bonus. The update to Burgundian Vineyards was fitting, and gives them a solid boost if they make it through the storm to a Post Imperial environment, where gold is scarce. Flemish Militia need to stay, because they grant further flavor, even if the mechanic behind it is eventually changed. They also have somewhat playable Hand Cannoneers, though their lack of Siege Engineers adds a sharp vulnerability to their cannons.
They have clear weaknesses, with a poor Archery Range (D tier), and Siege Workshop. They score a solid C in naval capabilities, which is not good on maps with serious sea battles.

I don’t think this is a fair remark, because the opponent also has to purchase this tech at some point, and while you are right that initially you are ahead compared to someone who buys this tech, eventually you fall behind. It’s a simple consideration of temporal value of goods. Generally, assuming you are willing to wait, goods tomorrow > goods today, and the wait to break even is not very long in case of AoE. There is a point in time, where the Burgundians gain a permanent advantage by teching into this early. The wood loss etc. etc. applies all the same even if you pick this up in Feudal also.

I agree with this consideration though, I think overall this makes the Cavalier upgrade fair compared to what other civs can do in Castle Age.

iirc the civ bonus applies to bonus damage as well. So Burgundian BBC are top tier (I’m tempted to say highest damage output in the game but I might be not considering some other random civ). Their bonus more than offsets the lack of Siege Engineers though their Trebs etc. are below average, sure.

yes, but the point is - getting it early isn’t as big an advantage.
yeah your opponent has to get it at some point - but by then he has a larger economy as well, which means its easier to afford it and you have more people working, which means it pays itself off faster.
why do you think they had to reduce the cost of Burgundians eco techs in addition to an age earlier? because you couldn’t bloody afford to get them in dark age.

it is very good - but the point being - you don’t generally want to get cavalier right away. because if you do, assuming a standard two stable opener - your opponent is going to be at 6 knights, while you’re at 3 cavalier. guess who wins that fight?

I like to think Burgundians as Cavalry versions of Chinese and Vikings. Strong economy bonus till late game which carries the average units.

They are by no means OP and they have clear weaknesses. In extended scout wars (2 Pools), the scouts fall off so bad despite being a Cavalry civilization.

The Cavalier research takes 100 seconds while Bloodlines practically takes 0 seconds (you research it in Feudal Age where the Stable is usually idle).

The best friend to cavalry - Skirmishers are below average as well. However, the civ is geared towards Heavy Cavalry + HC, both of which are gold intensive and worse at survival. Burgundian Vineyards is the perfect technology for the civ.

The civ also lacks all siege options other than Bombard Cannon, which is dubious, but certainly helpful.

I cannot comment on its strength on water since I haven’t played them much on water.

Honestly the game needed Cavalry versions of Vikings and Chinese. The first step of the devs was Cumans (Feudal TC), which backfired with OPneds. The 2nd step was Burgundians which backfired due to UPness. The new Burgundians are actually great and acceptable.

The only thing I want to change is Flemish revolution - which I want spawns 3 FM at every TC (new/old both) And enables the FM at TC too.

But looking at aoestats, it doesn’t seem like that’s what’s giving the civ a high win rate.

i’d have them start with less food and wood and keep what makes their civ an eco civ.

I’d like to see the Coustillier become more viable. Its a good unit, but expensive to tech into and slow to accumulate. Almost no point making them over paladins rn.

Thats such a dumb change. You cant just give a civ a disadvantage unless they have a diferent start in terms of villagers and in the case of Huns houses.

Just reduce the discount slightly