Cavalier upgrade in castle age is kinda akward considering that the civ lacks bloodlines. In the end, their paladins are just meh.
I’d remove the cavalier upgrade in castle age, give them bloodlines and they would become a decent cav civ with stable tech discounts and FU paladins.
Id say they’re good in booming arena style maps. They can also get fishing upgrades and eco upgrades earlier. As Paladin civ, in those maps they’re actually one of the ones with better economy: better than spanish, magyars, cumans, huns, teutons and lithuanians. Only losing against Franks and Persians.
Coustillier, Paladin, Hand cannoneer are all late game military options. They struggle quite a lot against spearmen and archer combo at castle age unless they match it with their own.
Add into that the fact that their relic income is considerably better than other civs, they get ton of free gold units with flemish militia that are only really countered by Hand Cannoneers or archers (which they should beat with paladin) and they have a tech to get gold from farming while converting food into gold.
So Burgundians are the civ that can make gold units longest, and their Hussar and Skirmisher being quite bad doesn’t matter that much because flemish militia beat full thrash comps.
Aside of a buff for their early eco, replacing the whole of the flemish revolution tech for something that helps their cavalry late game could help. +1/+1 armor for knight line? % damage reduction?
Funny how theory is so different from practice. To be honest, most of us (including pros) were thinking both civs are OP.
The changes to Burgandians are: -10 charge attack and a bug fix.
That’s why I suggested such change to flemish revolution. This would open options for them to play with archers and xbows up to imp, when they would have a smooth transition into gunpowder, supported by good halbs and hussars, and the latter are too helped in the transition.
It would work, it would mean that burgundians may go either knights or xbows or both, and then transition into cheaper paladin, or mass HC and cheaper hussar. BBC already take little effort to tech into once in imp, since they need only chemistry (which is cheaper than CR or SR or SE) and the more damage bonus makes them better at destroying enemy buildings.
They would still need an early help, but this way at least they would have the advantage of swiftly and easily change between different combos and units types, making them more flexible.
yeah and i still like that idea
for me the issue though is the affected siege weapons can already start being trained/massed while waiting for the tech. siege engineers just makes such a huge difference on the utility of scorps/rams and especially mangos… and yeah the bbc is nice, but it is still super fragile, a treb with SE is still a much safer/cheaper/better building killer
I think the tech shouldn’t be changed completely. It’s ok to make it less volatile, like only converting 1/2 of the vils, but the name and design is kinda obvious how it should work.
And it’s a nice tribute to one of the most famous battles in the middle ages.
I actually don’t understand why burgundians have bonus to their gunpowder, their time was over far before the gunpowder revolution was at it’s peak.
And I like the flemish militia design, it would be a nice addition if you wouldn’t have to sacrifice your eco once to get it.
part of the reason for the change is so many people hate the tech, and it fixes a very big gap in the burg tech tree… (it at least makes xbows more appealing)
a lot needs to change before burg are balanced… even with an eco bonus they will still have weak ranged units, expensive champs, and bad siege works, thats almost every possible field is bad, and then their cav arent even that good, just cheaper to tech into…
at least goths in comparison have some huge bonuses for their infantry even if the rest of their tech tree is bad, and even then they are arguably a bad civ…
Definitely a weak civ 1v1 in open maps as early eco upgrade bring u late up time. Without early upgrade they have 0 eco bonus.
Also below average in open map pocket (cav civs only) for same reason, to a less extent.
The cavalier upgrade occupy stable for 100s equivalent to 3.3 knight production.
Sure the best thing is half price and early paladin upgrade, but the window is small, and for balanced castle age play, it is likely they will reach imperial later than the likes of Franks, Teutons, Persians, Malians, Huns and Berbers etc.
Closed map they are better since the eco upgrade can be customized to your boom plan. Coustillier is also more available as an gold efficient version of paladin.
They have one of the worst booms in the game. The early eco upgrades are deceiving, they are designed for the later ages.
They can be plaed as pocket though, not because of the boom but because of the interaction of sling-boom and flemish revolution with 200 vills.
Yeah but onestly, in castle age destroying buildings isn’t a big problem, a ram or a manganel is enough. Even if those units aren’t upgraded in imp, it’s not a big deal, you still want either trabs or BBC to destroy castles. The only other alternative are SR, but actually they take more to tech into them, and the upgrade cost the double of chemistry. Siege in the end isn’t a type of unit that needs to be massed.
Scorps and onagers without SE do suffer, but still, burgundians with gunpowder and paladins are supposed to counter all units.
No they are not bad. They are good at what they do, but they are very predictable, so they are probably less effective at higher elos. Still getting Cavalier (at a discount!) in Castle Age is really strong, I frequently annihilate Hun players with Burgundians just because of this power spike 
Just give them bloodlines and remove their cavalier upgrade from the castle age, then they will be more than fine, i even suggest to give them back their fallen knight bonus which back 50% gold from a fallen knight. Another thing their UTs need a change for sure and redesign again.
but as others have proven lith can do it, without sacrificing time on the stables, can actually get stronger kts, and magyar pwr spike is instant on reaching castle age and getting kts
and on top of all of that, its a delayed power spike, ie every other civ actually has a power spike v burgundians while they have low hp kts waiting for cavalier to kick in. as well as them having a weaker scout/light cav, meaning their counter to monks (the very counter to kts) is much weaker than most other cav civs (teutons dont need it as much)
this might be the answer… but it is the boring solution… it certainly makes their paladin power spike much more powerful… and i dont think they should get 50% gold back on paladins lost. they already have the massive discounts on all the stable tech which would mean a ton more with BL (especially the light cav)
but i would prefer to see other civ buffs (like the tech tree/early eco buffs) instead of yet another generic paladin upgrade
I think if they really want to buff this civ, then just maybe just tweak the coustillier a bit. It was clearly OP when the DLC was released, but now they’ve weakened it too much in the other direction.
I would just give back its old stats, with the exception that the charge attack doesn’t trigger against spearman-line units (so in that case, it becomes extremely ineffective, as the base attack of the unit is pretty low)
i don’t think that would do nearly enough to make them a good civilization sorry.
I guess then you could also think about replacing the gunpowder bonus with sth else, cause it being a purely imp bonus makes it pretty “meh” category.
Stable techs research in -50% time (except Paladin) and -50% cost
Basically makes Cavalier research in 50 seconds which is same as generic civ Bloodlines
Also affects Light Cavalry and Hussar upgrades, which isn’t much
This is balanced for cavalier since other Knight civs can research Bloodlines after clicking upto Castle Age, but Burgandians have to wait
Or just simply, Cavalier research available in Feudal Age, so that Cavalier upgrade is also researched while ageing up and doesn’t cost stable time
Note: Cavalier upgrade research in Feudal doesn’t mean Cavaliers in Feudal. An upgrade affects an existing unit. It means that as soon as Knights are available, they are upgraded to Cavaliers
I can also appreciate Flemish Revolution only affecting male villagers, since males fought battles mostly. This also means that the economy is not lost completely.
Not really. They only changed the charge damage and absolutely nothing else. It’s still cheaper than knights, and it trains fast for a cav UU. Only problem is that the elite upgrade is more expensive to get than paladin for the civ, so it can make people ditch the unit in favour of paladins.
Balanced for cavalier, not for paladin and hussar.
Sooooo weird. The civ doesn’t need anymore weirdness 11
RNG dependant + doesn’t solve the fact it’s gimmicky af.