having to research thumb ring is a burden on eco for most part though, xbows can work fine for the majority of castle age without thumb ring but cav archers, not at all.
7 Likes
And thatās the difference between Cav Archer builds and archer builds.
Those units have their own identities - different moments and conditions in the game when Thumb Ring needs to be researched for them. Argument: letās make it work the same way is not a good direction for the game to be developed imo.
2 Likes
Why so toxic? You are the one the have no idea what you talkingā¦ By giving them an accuracy buff you reduce a little bit the need for early research of Thumb Ring (very expensive for early castle age).
Heavy CA (Imperial Age) is pretty OK atm, itās just castle age CA that needs a buff. Reducing the early need of the Thumb Ring is one of the best approaches (and the small Frame Delay buff).
Crossbow upgrade = 125f 75g
Cavalry Archer āmust haveā upgrades (Thumb Ring + Bloodlines) = 450f 250w 100g (not to mention the need of a stable)
Even if you say that bloodlines is not needed if you are just raiding (not fighting) Thumb Ring alone is expensive.
4 Likes
Sounds nice and all, but Iāve noticed people donāt like making units they canāt fully upgrade later, even as a short-term strat, and especially CAs. So basically unless you start gigving PT+ TR + bonus to more civs you wonāt see the unit much more.
What is the reason behind CAās so bad Frame Delay compared to EVERY other cavalry archer UU? I think they take more than 2 seconds to start firing an arrowā¦
Kipchak: 0
Elephant Archer: 4
Mangudai: 5
Camel Archer: 5
Cavalry Archer: 10 
I understand they canāt fire too fast because it would lead to Hit & Run tactics abuse, but why make it so bad compared to other similar units?
Itās so frustrating to play with CAā¦ So many upgrades (stable/blacksmith/archery range/university) and they still perform so bad for the investment.
3 Likes
A lot of Tournament matches have been won by CA this year (2020).
yeah it really sucksā¦ they used to be so much more responsive than they are nowā¦
I watch pro streams a lot and I seriously doub that. Maybe some games but āa lotā?! When?
And Iām talking mainly about CA (castle age cavalry archer), not Heavy Cavalry Archer (Imperial). At imperial age their fire rate problem is way less problematicā¦
1 Like
Same with Accuracyā¦
Kipchak: 90%
Elephant Archer: 100%
Mangudai: 95%
Camel Archer: 95%
Cavalry Archer: 50% 
4 Likes
I could be wrong but i think the only units with worse accuracy than CA are gunpowder and arambaiā¦ And not by that much worseā¦
1 Like
and arambai and hc still have there place
I havenāt been diligently keeping records of such things, but my subjective impression from watching different levels is that the gameās meta is strongly ELO dependent. I see people say things on this forum that just donāt match what I see watching other peopleās games, and I think some OP effects only happen at certain ELOs. From this forum youād think archers are totally OP, but when I watch games between >2.2k players, I donāt see them mainly making archers game after game. At the same time, my impression is that TheViper quite likes CA, though Iām not differentiating between CA and HCA in saying that. As I said, I havenāt been diligently keeping records, so maybe someone would prove me wrong if they watched 100 of his games and counted how many of each unit he made, but my subjective impression has been he uses CA more and foot archers less than you would expect from the sentiments expressed on this forum.
2 Likes
Maybe it has something to do with the fact that for the same gold arambai do double the damage, and are a lot more sturdy.
And itās not only this forum either. The archer issue is prevalent across the various forums. Although itās better than it was thanks to less bad pathing.
I think people like viper can simply micro at a far higher level than most of us, so these types of things affect them less. Somehow they can leverage the 10 frame delay and avoid CA stutterā¦
Arbalesters have 5 frame delay, Mangudai have 5, Kipchak have 0, but Heavy Cavalry Archers, which require significantly more resource investment than arbalesters to be decent have 10 frame delayā¦why???
Now that melee pathing has been improved, heavy cavalry archer frame delay should be reduced to 5 as well.
4 Likes
CA get 100% accuracy after Thumb Ring. Crossbows need the Crossbow upgrade, Magudai need a castle, CA need TR. Seems reasonable to me.
Also remember a large part of the Tatar bonus is getting 100% accuracy on CA as soon as they hit Castle. Any buff to CA could try to respect their specialisation.
Go check the Tatars winrate thenā¦ barely 40%.
Crossbows (85% accuracy) are good even without Thumb Ring. Iāve seen pro players skip TR for half the gameā¦
And you canāt compare the ridiculous low cost of the Crossbow upgrade to the cost of CA upgrades lol (a Stable and Bloodlines is pretty much a MUST). And you start making Archers from Feudal Ageā¦ no comparison the numbers you can get of Xbows compared to CA.
By the wayā¦ Magyars and Turks are also pretty much āCA civsā and are on bad winrates too.
6 Likes
As I said earlier, I wouldnāt mind a CA buff. I just think increasing the accuracy isnāt a good way to buff them.
My point was precisely that CA should be buffed in such a way that it also benefits tatars
easiest buff is frame delay by far. no reason for a hit and run unit to have a frame delay larger then generic archers.
4 Likes
I suggested a buff to CAās accuracy mainly because that would barely touch the Heavy Cavalry Archer balance. And also because 50% is WAY too low compared to other unitsā¦
They canāt buff too much an atribute that will escalate to fully upgraded HCA become overpowered on Imperial Ageā¦
Frame Delay is by far their main problem, so my main recommendation would be to buff that!
But if that is not possible (due to Imperial Age balance) I would at least go for an Accuracy buff.
2 Likes
Buffing CA accuracy to something like 75% will have the least impact in the long run imo. But also helps the few civs that have CA but no thumb ring (eg burma)
Reducing frame delay to something like 7 would be awesome, but might have ramifications for higher elo where CA are already used more.
It might be a similar case to the italians, buff condo first, still not good enough so buff the civ some more, but at least we got a buff in the meantimeā¦
Push for a small CA buff first(increased accuracy) and see how it pans out. Then push for the bigger buff(frame delay)?