I’d want to see camels having a small bonus against the elephant armor class, something like +3 for camel riders and +5 for heavy camels and imperial camels.
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given that the most camel civs, at least those with boni don’t have access to halerdiers this would be fair
Btw this is also why - referring to @AbuzzJam4677680 point - many cav civs can try to use halbs against camels. But in many open map types it’s not an even matchup anyways, the halbs are just too slow. I would rather like to see the camel civs also having (not fully upgraded) hals but the matchup being less one-sided than it currently is. Meaning I would like camels to have at least one specificatio / utility where they are clearly worse than Knights. I know they aren’t as good in raiding, but for my take they are actually good enough raiders - as in most cases the issue is to actually get to the raiding locations and with the higher speed camels actually often have even an advantage there.
That’s why I think losing some base Attack (but getting more bonus damage in compensation) could be one tweak that would add a possible counterstrat possible when Knights are just the way better Raiders and Camels would be weaker in this department.
And then ofc some Bonus vs Eles could also be a nice touch, given that eles have received various buffs and therefore some of the current camel civs actually have no real answer to an ele push.
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Mongol and Byzantine Heavy Camels lose to Elite Boyars, Elite Centurions, and Teuton Paladins. Even fully upgraded Heavy Camels barely win, with only 5–10 HP remaining.
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Elite Leitis defeats FU Heavy Camels with 2 relics! They also cost less gold, have better armor and HP. They’re cost-effectively countering Heavy Camels on top of being way more well-rounded! Are we sure Leitis is even supposed to counter fully upgraded Heavy Camels?
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So what? Lithuanian tech tree is relatively narrow. The only reliable branch is cavalry and UU from castle. Most camel civs have good ranged units to back up their camels.
Those are two very m strong civs. Their camels are still cost efficient. Byzantine camels are actually some of the best in the game. For mongols, elite mangudai alone kill every single unit in the slav and teuton tech trees.
xbow + camel is a really strong composition in castle age vs cavalry civs
Well, then the text is misleading. Because Leitis isn’t weak to generic camels. Instead, those camels are weak to Leitis. Maybe the text should be corrected in the next patch.
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Almost all gold costing cavalry also 1v1 pikes… and its fine
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What? No, Lith are very versatile. They have excellent halb and skirm and even champ and bombard cannon, the only important thing they don’t have is arb, and it’s the only tech their xbow is missing. Not many civs are more versatile than lith.
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What are you talking about? I just tested it in scenario editor, mongol heavy camel absolutely destroy teuton paladins. so i won’t bother testing the other claims
Idk what app that is, I tested a real battle in the scenario editor which doesn’t lie. Keep in mind it should be 27 vs 23 to account for cost difference
If you’re a Middle Eastern civ, yes, since the Camel is the good counter to the Knight…
Not accounting for unit cost, train time and upgrade costs which for what it takes to get to paladin you can buy 14 more camels worth of gold, 10 if just heavy camel is counted.
Also you are using a civ with more imperfect camels vs Teutons. Mongols are way able to be aggressive vs teutons with fast hunting great scouting and there is no civ more at the mercy of Mangudai than one of the slowest civs who rely on siege infantry and non husbandry knighthood except range lacking skirmishers. I might throw in a few hussars for running down certain siege and maybe skirms but Mangudai can handle everything a Teuton has it isnt even funny
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There’s almost no such thing as a basic camel. You’re not wrong about the few that dont have any boosts tho - SOTL did a deep dive one time and it turns out that in age 3 camels barely counter knights.
That being said, the heavy camel upgrade makes a difference. Assuming both are completely generic, and have all upgrades (damage, armor, hp, etc) then the camel wins. Less than half hp, but also not something that 1 attack could change. Its a proper hard counter.
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So either boost castle age camels attack bonus to kill knights one hit earlier or boost their hp so they survive one more knight hit
If anyone knows those numbers, would be great
I don’t think camels need a buff. That would make them unfair vs knight civs
There’s almost no such thing as a basic camel. You’re not wrong about the few that dont have any boosts tho - SOTL did a deep dive one time and it turns out that in age 3 camels barely counter knights.
I wouldn’t say they barely counter. It’s 8 hits to kill vs 12, that’s a big difference that snowballs in large fights, yes the knights attack ~10% faster but the camels are ~10% cheaper which is better.
No need to nerf Hindustanis HC. The only reason you want a nerf for the Hindustanis is because you’re aiming for gunpowder unit dominance with the Turks. The Hindustanis are indeed very strong (maybe a bit too much), but the sharp increase in the cost of Shatagni is enough to rebalance them.
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