Are the Halberdier Anti-cavalry, Anti-camel and Anti-elephant bonuses too high?

Halbs are an absolutely terrible unit against anything but cav. They need to be very strong against that if it’s their only purpose.
Also heavy cavalry is extremely strong (handicapped by pathfinding to be fair), as they are among the strongest units, but also very mobile. They need some hard counters and I think the game overall does a very good job at balancing that.

Elephants are fine as well, they’re just more of a teamgame unit (unlimited gold) than 1v1 - but that’s okay I think.
They’re just hard to balance as making them viable for 1v1 would very likely make them oppressive in team games (they’re already close to being that).

4 Likes

spearman-line bonus buff vs camels is something I never understood. It was introduced after African Kingdoms expansion because indian camels were OP and by far the strongest pocket civ in the game, but as a result, civs like byzantines, turks and saracens really got a big hit. (these pocket civs occasionally make camels as pocket in TGs)

In AoC, camels took about half bonus damage as regular cavalry. This made total sense, because camels are a relatively soft counter to knight line, are nearly as expensive as heavy cavalry and hence should perform roughly equally well vs spearmanline as heavy cavalry.

in 1v1 games, since camels are so fragile vs pikes, they’re pretty much only useful for early castle age until the opponent mixes in pikes.

8 Likes

They are fine but the spearman line needs a bit of speed boost.

1 Like

haha yeah i also imagined the missionary was auto excluded… and ironically the cataphract kind of counters the halberdier, so literally disproves parthnan haha

1 Like

yeah this makes sense as well. but its a tough one wrt indian camels, they either need to nerf the indian camel if they nerf pikes, or buff all the other camels… i think i would prefer a buff on all other camels

Don’t agree with a false causation-consequence sentence. The resources being nearly equal doesn’t mean the unit has to do the same thing as the other one. A ram costs waay more than a halb, i don’t demand it do better than a halb against the knight line.

Very True, its a pitiful story for Camels…
This thread is also a must-see for devs…

2 Likes

In AoC, camels took about half bonus damage as regular cavalry. This made total sense, because camels are a relatively soft counter to knight line, are nearly as expensive as heavy cavalry and hence should perform roughly equally well vs spearmanline as heavy cavalry.

Yeah, but back then camels still had the ship armor class, so they would literally melt under castle fire, which made them horrible at raiding.

The problem with camels has always been indians. You buff the camels a bit and indian camels end up being OP all over again. I honestly am not sure how this can be fixed without breaking something.

1 Like

Castle Age Camel Riders are still quite weak and have very little anticav bonus though, so even Indian Castle Age Camel Riders are ordinary with just 6 base attack and only 9 anticav, while still costing 60G, more than Leitis, Keshiks and Berber Cavalier.
It is the Indian Economy that is good.

And then consider that the halb(a 6 base damage unit) damage against another 6 base damage unit is now buffed to +26…

1 Like

Cavalries especially elephants and Paladins are really really tanky. So it’s good to have strong counter against them. Otherwise some civ could not stands against them.

4 Likes

Ofcourse @Lonezwiebel . But this topic is also about the Huge bonus damage vs Elephants and vs Camels which are not seen nearly enough and are also not meta units((except for Indians, who have literally no other good option)

Elephants of all kinds are pitifully underused, except for Khmer BE in some cases
Melee Camels are definetly not seen from anyone except for Indians, who have no other choice, or for Byzantines with the cheaper Camels.

1 Like

For me it would be OK to slightly reduce extra damage against camels but not for elephants they are too tanky.

I know elephants cannot run away from pikes but you can protect them with Archer or skirms.

Actually camel rider you only produce them to counter cavalry and not to attack the enemy base. Indians are special civ. Then you have to prepare Archer range units because you know the enemy will come with halbedier.

Malians also make Heavy Camels as a reliable source of raiding damage, once Farimba is researched, because they are cheaper and faster than Cavaliers.

I also agree that anti-Elephant bonus should be more than anti-cav bonus.
But should it be as high as +60 is the question, considering that Elephants of all kinds are already pitifully underused, except for Khmer BE in some cases,

and also that Elephants nowadays only have 300 or less HP, meaning only 5-6 hits needed to kill them by the most spammable unit in the game. This is not 600HP Elite War Elephants we’re talking about… (those are never ever seen)

Agreed on anti-Camel bonus needing to nerfed a bit, it was increased too much in my opinion…

I’m thinking of nerfing halb’s attack to 5 or even 4. Why do they need all that attack with their huge bonus damage

1 Like

You hit the nail in the head, kudos to you @JoJo9942
Please someine important SEE THIS :pleading_face:

I would instead nerf the bonus against camels and elephants a tiny bitty small amount (5, or less) , so armor upgrades still have accounts for damage

2 Likes

@JokerPenguin593’s suggestion could be even better, I agree to both of the above solutions to this unit-balance problem
I personally would like to see 5 base attack for Halbs and -5 Anti-Elephant, -5 Anti-Camel
Pikes and Spears are totally fine

maybe anti damage vs Camels should be nerfed but not vs Imperial Camels. In this case Imp Camels should get their own armor class.

Even after the nerf they will still do +22 vs Imp Camels, which is much more than before the anti-Camel increase
And Imp camels have also lost 1 melee armor it had in African Kingdoms

So I don’t think it is necessary to give Imperial Camels their own Armor class, after all it’s just like a Cavalier upgrade, +20HP and +2Attack, that too on a 7 base attack unit.
Indians have no other unit to go to, that is why a lot of things are attributed to them, when it is actually the Indian Economy that is strong(but not OP)

1 Like