He said unused, not useless.
I think he don’t want for those units to be OP, just change them so to see them more often, but without necessarily buff them or their civs.
2 Likes
Well, and why would an unit not be used besides being useless/outclassed?
1 Like
Well, there are a lot of reason, maybe because they have a situational use, or because the context where they are need is too rare, or maybe because they have an hight cost or they aren’t that viable like they should. Again, I don’t agree with him on everything, but I think we shouldn’t discard his ideas right away, just discuss about it.
3 Likes
But how do you define that? Tbh when I read the OP, with the wording, I feel like it’s 7 points about the ele archer 11 And the whole thing is like: Do we do it or leave them unviable, answer Yes/No. Of course who is going to say no? That’s ridiculous.
2 Likes
It’s debatable, but we can find some parameters, like:
- How well did they fit their role? Are there any better choices?
- Are they affordable? How rare it’s their context of use?
But, in my opinion, the question her is how often we see them used?
Is there any way to improve the game? It doesn’t matter if now it work or is good, it’s not about fix, it’s about to improve, if the game is better everyone enjoy it more, then again, of course you don’t have to agree with his idea to improve the game.
4 Likes
I’m my opinion, condos and SW could really use a change to see them more often. TK would need an idea a bit more out of the box. TS already cost less wood (koreans’ bonus) so you should consider that, but maybe 10g less could help (not 30, it’s too much in my opinion).
I WANT THAT BUTTON FOR INSTA UNGARRISON
Sorry, it’s just so frustrating to me.
2 Likes
I am just surprised that Shotel Warriors, Samurais, HC and Condos cost MORE than frikkin ELITE KESHIKS (as each keshik usually pays back >5G) that have 160 HP 3 PA and are much faster, with hill bonus AND payback ability.
And yet, I have never seen any complaints about Keshiks harming the balance.
This means there is a huge headroom for the reduction of cost of these infantry UUs and HC.
Any thoughts?
2 Likes
Siege towers need to be way cheaper like either 1/2 the cost (100W 80G) or cost no gold (200W 0G).
If they were reduced by 1/2, Teutons should get them for 0 gold as a civ bonus 100W 0G.
1 Like
Teutons literally do not need any buffs at all right now.
2 Likes
Well this was my idea pre-buff. I guess they are in a better position now. I forgot about the most recent big buff to Teutons.
1 Like
Anyone got anything to add here?
1 Like
First the assumption that Keshiks always pay back 5 gold is quite bold. To do so they would need to fight straight for 13.5 seconds, which might happen but at the cost of their life if they fight stronger melee units (which are quite common) or might not happen at all if the enemy has halbs/camels. Plus they can’t pay back for themselves if they aren’t built first so disregarding the upfront cost like that is biased.
So if we redo the whole thing correctly:
Shotels are spammed so fast they can bypass the weakness of coming out of a castle, and unlike keshiks can 2 shot vills and raze buildings super fast. Furthermore they are cheaper than keshiks.
Condos are created really fast, come out of barracks. Furthermore they are cheaper than keshiks.
Samurai are indeed left a bit behind because of supplies. But even then, keshiks still aren’t cheaper (same total cost, but samurai is +10 food and keshiks +10 gold)
HC are indeed more expensive than keshiks. But if you’re Tatar and the enemy is spamming halbs trust me you will be better of with those than keshiks.
While the HP and PA are good strenghts, they also have a weaker attack than most.
If you have never seen complaints about keshik harming the balance then you’re blind, as many people woke up when they gave free thumb ring to Tatars + reduced keshik train time and suddenly found the unit crazy OP. Most of it was vastly unjustified (like I say: only new Vietnamese hasn’t been called OP yet among buffed civs 11) The deal with this thread is that the wording makes the whole thing feel extremely biased. Like you’re insisting on the hill bonus for keshiks, even tho this bonus isn’t even that good for ranged units already, no one is gonna micro their cav in castle/imp for some more hill bonus. In the OP, you’re like “these units are unused, if you don’t want some tweaking on them you have to explain why you want them to be never used” and it looks like explaining why the premise is wrong is not answering the question. Wanting a yes/no answer is so dumb I don’t get why you even brought it up in the first place. Game balance is a bit more complicated than that u know.
3 Likes
It’s just an idea, but maybe samurai could use a bit of a speed boost to be more used.
It’s just that italians’ condos are a bit weak.
Condottiero have a +10 infantry armour bonus.
That lets them take 10 less attack from hand cannoneers. But it also reduces the attack of Catapracts and Jaguar Warriors etc…
Perhaps they could get even more secret armour or attack types to buff them ^^
Like, for example: +5 damage against siege weapons or +2 armour against unique units.
That’s was an old bug, it was fixed years ago, now that armor affects only HC attacks, and it’s fine that way, but I don’t think that +1/1 armor though pavise wouldn’t broke them either.
2 Likes
Condos are really difficult to balance being a team unit. It is pretty evident that the huge nerf they got made them bad in the thing they did, fast imperial aggression.
Now, especially with the introduction of supply, there is no reason to go condos, in particular for an archer civ like Italians which will have ranged options at lower price to counter gunpowder. HC are super situational, and probably have no sense against Italians since they will go archers.
A possibility would be to give condos a new role, at least for Italians. Removing champions may work, but still, even making condos affected by pavise, could be a a worst version of champion for its high cost, in particular for Italians ’ allies.
1 Like
A new mechanics affecting condos can be a solution, maybe by copying it from age of mythology, where devs have already implemented it.
I see this mechanics very good for condos being a team unit, but please, feel free to propose it to other useless UUs.
You can limit the number of condos to a fixed quantity, say 10 condos in the same moment. When one dies, you can create a new one, but if you have 10 on the field you can not. This is pure AoM mechanics.
Then you introduce a team upgrade, exactly as elite genitour of Berbers. This upgrade (which can be slow to research to avoid fast imp and surprising landing) removes gold cost from condos.
So basically your army is supplied by 10 weak units costing 50 food or more (the upgrade may increase the food cost). This way my teammate is willing to add 10 condos just to have a small boost. This fits also the fact that they are perceived as mercenaries: you buy a group of them from the gold point of view thanks to the upgrade. It is like paying the support of 10 units only once from a gold point of view.
Condos are units in between castle and imperial as stats. So I do not think this is OP, especially because you have a limited number. If you feel this as too strong, they can of course be nerfed, for instance by removing the armor. If Italians condos will become too weak this way, I can always copy the solution of @DoctBaghi making them affected by pavise.
For other UUs a similar logic can be applied imo, maybe without the need to introduce the tech… however I feel it very good for condos since they are a team unit.
1 Like
Condos? The strongest late game water landing unit.
If this ever gets in it should be applied to Cuman mercenaries kipchaks and nothing else.
Anyway, why all this complicated stuff while Condos do what they are supposed to do (landings, fast imp strats, counter-gunpowder) just fine? Furthermore if you only have 10 they won’t be able to counter gunpowder, as they will be outnumbered. And lastly, who cares about gold in team games?
I’d like to start by reminding everyone that team ranked is also a thing with its own meta. That being said,
Let’s go one by one:
War elephants: for me this is a team game consideration. It is actually pretty easy to amass war elephants on a closed match (arena black forest) and they are inevitable wins if big enough numbers.
Shotel warrior - this is an incredibly effective offensive tower unit in the early castle age. It isn’t really supposed to be cost effective. If I remember correctly, it’s build time is really low, letting you fend off Rams after an early castle drop. I don’t think 5 gold matters too much either way, so it wouldnt break the civ, but it’s an idea if the civ as a whole needs a buff.
Condottiero - this unit isn’t more meta because it’s so situational. It’s main draw is actually that you don’t have to tech into it at all, making it an emergency infantry you didn’t need to upgrade (or even a castle to build ). I actually love it on islands! Obviously with good scouting, it’s less of an issue. However, something could be said about letting supplies work on it. Also there are some team game situations for someone else to consider (Persians only getting long swordsman, gotha getting a counter to gunpowder that’s already discountes to mix with huskarls etc)
Tuetonic knights are another situational use. They are already strartlingly cost effective and another instant 2h swordsman level of effectiveness for the cost of a castle. I wouldn’t want them to become 7/8ths the cost.
Turtle ships - go for it. I’m all in. Honestly maybe if they were created faster this could be a better buff?
Steppe lancer - I think they are too similar to knights. Either they are better or they are worse. Civs that have them will do one or the other exclusively. They need to be changed altogether.
Seige tower - so long as it isn’t cheaper than a ram reduce it to whatever you want. And that’s just so they don’t end up accidentally nerfing archers by soaking up Archer fire.
1 Like