# Asian Civs Overhaul **URL:** \ **Category:** III - Discussion\ **Created:** [August 7, 2026, 1:43pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/asian-civs-overhaul/288634 "2026-08-07T13:43:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Hsiman4096](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/hsiman4096/32/34835_2.png) [@Hsiman4096](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Hsiman4096)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2026, 6:39am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/asian-civs-overhaul/288634/102 "2026-09-07T06:39:52Z")
> [@M1kazuki6861](#): > > If the opponent goes 80% heavy cav and 20% skirmishers, or if your anti cav units get focused down first, you don’t need a forced 50/50 batch—you need to replenish specific front line counters. Forbidden Army is the perfect choice to this situation. There are 8 banner armies with different combination of units, most situations can be handled with one of them. ---
**Author:** ![UpmostRook9474](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/upmostrook9474/32/47514_2.png) [@UpmostRook9474](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/UpmostRook9474)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2026, 6:58am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/asian-civs-overhaul/288634/103 "2026-09-07T06:58:13Z")
> [@M00Z1LLA](#): > > It is also way less likely to get an infantry version as it would have to be a kind of musk and you couldn’t easily fit that into China without substantial reworks. I think it simply can fire three projectiles in a row, similar to CKN. Or it could fire three projectiles at once, with the shots also hitting units too close to the target on both sides. > [@M00Z1LLA](#): > > But replacing a couple of the most fantastical Chinese units like Meteor Hammers and Flamethrowers with similar functioning units like Tieqi and Rocket Pods is more likely in my opinion. The biggest problem with the Meteor Hammer is that it’s basically impossible to use while mounted. As a martial arts weapon, I think the best solution would be to give the Shaolin a new shock infantry unit that uses it. The Flamethrower isn’t really fantastical. They were actually used by the Chinese. The only problem is that it’s very old, probably wouldn’t still have been in use within the timeframe. There aren’t many units that can throw fire, and this is the only one that doesn’t require a card to activate if I remember correctly. For the sake of catching eyes, I’m fine with keeping them. A range of 10 is in a bit of an awkward spot, not really long, but not really short either. It’s not easy to find a suitable replacement for the Flamethrower. Considering that the hand cannon might have siege damage and make sense with a limited effective range, maybe a Three-Eyed Gunner could work as a replacement. I don’t know. If the Three-Eyed Gunner could actually replace the Flamethrower, It would be great to have a card, e.g. Dragon Year or Fire Dragon Manual, that allows the Castle to enable the Flamethrower back. It would be a shame to waste that cool unit model. And if there can be a Chinese Isolationism, it would also be nice to have the Consulate version of Flamethrower. As for the Rocket Pod (or Rocket Cart if it’s in line with the AoE2 unit), its range would probably be much longer than the Flamethrower’s, so technically it might not be a suitable replacement. It should definitely be used against infantry, but it would be more like an Organ Gun in terms of its role, with a projectile arc similar to the Flying Crow. If the Koreans are a playable civ then it would be trainable at the Castle, and if there can be a Chinese Isolationism, its Consulate version would be a perfect unit there. ---
**Author:** ![M00Z1LLA](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/m00z1lla/32/104042_2.png) [@M00Z1LLA](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/M00Z1LLA)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2026, 7:29am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/asian-civs-overhaul/288634/104 "2026-09-07T07:29:13Z")
> [@UpmostRook9474](#): > > I think it simply can fire three projectiles in a row, similar to CKN. Or it could fire three projectiles at once, with the shots also hitting units too close to the target on both sides. Yes of course, but it would still have to be a musketeer type of unit. It’s basically a gun on a spear and it would be very bad design to make a unit with a spear not be heavy infantry. > [@UpmostRook9474](#): > > A range of 10 is in a bit of an awkward spot, not really long, but not really short either. It’s not easy to find a suitable replacement for the Flamethrower. It wouldn’t be exact but I think Rocket Pods would be as close as you’d get. The range could be increased at the expense of needing to reload. Otherwise it fills the exact same role of a high resistance infantry unit that has a fiery rapid fire siege attack. ![image](https://forums.ageofempires.com/uploads/default/original/3X/1/8/18dab351d0fcf57614de40e8aa39ee33dcfa73b4.png) > [@UpmostRook9474](#): > > It should definitely be used against infantry, but it would be more like an Organ Gun in terms of its role, with a projectile arc similar to the Flying Crow. If the Koreans are a playable civ then it would be trainable at the Castle, and if there can be a Chinese Isolationism, its Consulate version would be a perfect unit there. I’d say give a Korean civ a cart version that’s more how you describe it being like an Organ Gun because that’s what everyone will expect. China could have a handheld version that’s more of a shoot from the hip kind of weapon to keep it similar to the current Flamethrower. ---
**Author:** ![M1kazuki6861](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/m1kazuki6861/32/213717_2.png) [@M1kazuki6861](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/M1kazuki6861)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2026, 7:51am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/asian-civs-overhaul/288634/105 "2026-09-07T07:51:18Z")
> [@UpmostRook9474](#): > > In AoE2, the Chinese civ starts the game with no food and reduced wood in exchange for extra villagers. Less experienced players can easily mess up their opening because of the lack of resources, and even with the extra villagers, they can end up falling behind economically. More experienced players, on the other hand, know how to manage their limited starting resources and make good use of the extra villagers, which can give them a very strong economy. > > Basically, everyone recognizes this as a challenging design with a high learning curve that players have to overcome. But I don’t think anyone would call it a faulty system. > > Throughout the entire franchise, the Chinese civs in AoE2 and AoE3 aren’t the only civs where requires players to learn and adapt more. Having a learning curve doesn’t mean the system has a underlying issue. That’s a false equivalency. AoE2 China’s start is a tough opening that actually gives you a massive eco lead if you execute it right. It’s high effort for a high payoff. AoE3 Banners are just hassle for a structural handicap. Wrestling with forced 50/50 queues doesn’t reward you with better macro—it just caps your ability to adjust your unit ratios. Conflating restrictive production queues with “skill expression” is just defending bad design. > [@UpmostRook9474](#): > > Looking at your math, I just feel like the civ would become boring. A goalshift but okay, if standard unit training makes a civ “boring,” then every single civilization in the game is boring. You guys should realize at some point that China’s “flavor” should come from its unique units, Wonders, and Villages - not from artificial queue restrictions. > [@UpmostRook9474](#): > > Again, the Chinese are unique because of that mechanic, and their current balance is built around it. If you remove it and make them more like every other civ, you’re just making them more boring and potentially creating new balance issues. > > M1kazuki6861: By that logic, any artificial restriction is “uniqueness.” A bad mechanic isn’t good identity just because it’s unique - it’s just a bad mechanic. Every civ uses individual production queues because direct ratio control is a core RTS baseline, not a gimmick to strip away. > [@UpmostRook9474](#): > > Why hasn’t any other civ adopted it? Because it’s the core identity of the Chinese civ! Even if it’s an incredibly successful and brilliant design, they wouldn’t share it to other civs. Developers don’t isolate “brilliant core design” to a single civ for 20 years - they isolate bad mechanics that don’t scale well. If forced mixed production were actually good RTS design, every competitive strategy game would use it instead of giving players direct ratio contro ---
**Author:** ![M1kazuki6861](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/m1kazuki6861/32/213717_2.png) [@M1kazuki6861](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/M1kazuki6861)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2026, 8:01am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/asian-civs-overhaul/288634/106 "2026-09-07T08:01:03Z")
> [@M00Z1LLA](#): > > Make a Ming Army and a Black Flag Army and you have that composition perfectly covered. It’s really not that hard to figure out. You’re proving the flaw. Buying a Ming Army + Black Flag Army forces you to dump resources into Meteor Hammers you don’t need, just to get the Changdao, Pikes, or Keshiks you actually want. Overpaying for unwanted units across two different buildings just to fix a simple ratio isn’t good design - it’s artificial friction. ---
**Author:** ![MatM1996](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/matm1996/32/29566_2.png) [@MatM1996](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/MatM1996)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2026, 8:16am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/asian-civs-overhaul/288634/107 "2026-09-07T08:16:34Z")
> [@zeppelino24](#): > > Honestly, the Chinese civilization needs a rework regarding its military units. Most are stuck in the 16th or 17th century; practically no unit adopts 19th-century attire upon reaching the Imperial Age—even though the Chinese civilization is based on the Qing Dynasty. This is yet another reason why a Chinese military overhaul wouldn’t be such a far-fetched idea. It might be possible to retain some original units by giving them a more modern look in the Imperial Age, while other units—such as arquebusiers, steppe horsemen, and meteor hammer troops—should likely be replaced entirely, all from a logical and historical standpoint. Additionally, incorporating the Self-Strengthening Movement would be a great addition, allowing for a more contemporary Chinese army that reflects the era of the Opium Wars and the Sino-Japanese War. Yes, they can go that way like they did with Japan… > [@M00Z1LLA](#): > > I said Manchu, not Mongol. Who cares if there’s already a Mongol Army? It’s the same thing, Manchu/Qing China conquered Mongolia between the 17th and 20th centuries… > [@UpmostRook9474](#): > > In AoE2, the Chinese civ starts the game with no food and reduced wood in exchange for extra villagers. Less experienced players can easily mess up their opening because of the lack of resources, and even with the extra villagers, they can end up falling behind economically. More experienced players, on the other hand, know how to manage their limited starting resources and make good use of the extra villagers, which can give them a very strong economy. And I’m capable… I can have the best civ and still fall behind…😅 ---
**Author:** ![M00Z1LLA](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/m00z1lla/32/104042_2.png) [@M00Z1LLA](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/M00Z1LLA)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2026, 1:23pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/asian-civs-overhaul/288634/108 "2026-09-07T13:23:38Z")
You asked how to deal with 80% heavy cav and 20% light infantry. The Meteor Hammers counter the light infantry you doofus. If you needed pure anti-cav then just make pure Ming Army. ---
**Author:** ![MatM1996](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/matm1996/32/29566_2.png) [@MatM1996](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/MatM1996)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2026, 2:51pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/asian-civs-overhaul/288634/109 "2026-09-07T14:51:18Z")
Yes, BHG created so many unique units for China so they could later distribute them to specialized armies, I don’t see the problem…🤷‍♂️ ---
**Author:** ![M1kazuki6861](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/m1kazuki6861/32/213717_2.png) [@M1kazuki6861](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/M1kazuki6861)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2026, 3:00pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/asian-civs-overhaul/288634/110 "2026-09-07T15:00:32Z")
> [@M00Z1LLA](#): > > You asked how to deal with 80% heavy cav and 20% light infantry. The Meteor Hammers counter the light infantry you doofus. If you needed pure anti-cav then just make pure Ming Army. And you’re shifting goalposts _ **again** _, completely missing the core argument about math and efficiency. A 33% Meteor Hammer / 67% Changdao split (Black Flag) isn’t a “perfect” counter. Meteor Hammers lose the heavy cav stat-check, while Changdao get kited endlessly by 20-range skirms before closing the gap. Even weaving in Ming Armies (3 Keshiks + 2 Pikes) collapses. Their skirms melt your Pikes/Changdao and your Keshiks with their high multiplier while abusing the bow animation delay. Add basic Goons to handle your Meteor Hammers, and they’ve hard-countered all four of your unit types using just two. Forced ratios prevent you from scaling the actual counters you need. Perhaps consider changing your handle to **Professional Goalpost Shifter**. I’ll change mine to **Destroyer of Civ Identities**. UpmostRook - or anyone else, for that matter - can join us to complete the ensemble so we finally resemble a real circus, not just in act, but also in name. ---
**Author:** ![M00Z1LLA](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/m00z1lla/32/104042_2.png) [@M00Z1LLA](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/M00Z1LLA)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2026, 3:10pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/asian-civs-overhaul/288634/111 "2026-09-07T15:10:35Z")
> [@M1kazuki6861](#): > > If the opponent goes 80% heavy cav and 20% skirmishers > [@M00Z1LLA](#): > > Make a Ming Army and a Black Flag Army and you have that composition perfectly covered. It’s really not that hard to figure out. > [@M1kazuki6861](#): > > Their skirms melt your Pikes/Changdao and your Keshiks with their high multiplier while abusing the bow animation delay. Add basic Goons to handle your Meteor Hammers, and they’ve hard-countered all four of your unit types using just two. > [@M1kazuki6861](#): > > you’re shifting goalposts _ **again** _, completely missing the core argument Again, you asked what to build to counter 80% heavy cav and 20% skirmishers. Then you proceed to describe how a skirm goon comp would defeat that army which was meant to counter mostly heavy cav. Who is shifting the goalposts here? ---
**Author:** ![M1kazuki6861](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/m1kazuki6861/32/213717_2.png) [@M1kazuki6861](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/M1kazuki6861)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2026, 3:18pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/asian-civs-overhaul/288634/112 "2026-09-07T15:18:13Z")
Forget Goons - your Ming + Black Flag mix loses directly to the 80% Heavy Cav / 20% Skirms. 33% of that 9-unit batch (Keshiks + Meteor Hammers) fails to trade effectively against Heavy Cav. Meanwhile, their 20% Skirms kite and delete the 67% anti-cav portion (Pikes + Changdao). You’re paying full price to lose the value trade on both ends because forced ratios stop you from massing pure anti-cav. Playing a semantic word game to avoid addressing the core mathematical flaw of forced banner ratios won’t help your argument. ---
**Author:** ![M00Z1LLA](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/m00z1lla/32/104042_2.png) [@M00Z1LLA](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/M00Z1LLA)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2026, 3:29pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/asian-civs-overhaul/288634/113 "2026-09-07T15:29:55Z")
Or what if instead of using anti-cav to fight skirms and heavy cav to fight heavy cav, you used the anti-cav to fight the heavy cav and use the Meteor Hammers to chase down the skirms? ---
**Author:** ![M1kazuki6861](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/m1kazuki6861/32/213717_2.png) [@M1kazuki6861](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/M1kazuki6861)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2026, 3:43pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/asian-civs-overhaul/288634/114 "2026-09-07T15:43:36Z")
So you’re assuming the enemy will kindly step aside, disable unit collision, and let that 33% cav allocation run straight for their backline uninterrupted? Ignoring snaring, body-blocking, and basic sight range to pretend a minor cav fraction can freely dive an 80% heavy cav front line isn’t game logic - it’s wishful thinking. Forced ratios leave you without enough cav to dive _or_ enough anti-cav to hold. ---
**Author:** ![M00Z1LLA](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/m00z1lla/32/104042_2.png) [@M00Z1LLA](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/M00Z1LLA)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2026, 3:49pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/asian-civs-overhaul/288634/115 "2026-09-07T15:49:48Z")
So you’re saying you’re too incompetent to properly use your units and that’s the reason China needs a complete overhaul that guts the civ’s identity. Makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![Tetsuryu](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/tetsuryu/32/164336_2.png) [@Tetsuryu](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Tetsuryu)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2026, 3:52pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/asian-civs-overhaul/288634/116 "2026-09-07T15:52:59Z")
Ça me rappelle un pote dans wow qui jouais druide feral, une spé où tu te métamorphose en félin pour infliger en grande partie des dégats de saignement sur la durée, il tout tenté pour jouer que avec des techniques de dégats directs 🤣 ---
**Author:** ![M1kazuki6861](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/m1kazuki6861/32/213717_2.png) [@M1kazuki6861](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/M1kazuki6861)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2026, 3:53pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/asian-civs-overhaul/288634/117 "2026-09-07T15:53:00Z")
That’s a lot of words to admit you couldn’t refute a single point about body-blocking, snaring, or resource trades. If “proper unit control” requires the enemy player to disable their mouse and let you dive their backline for free, your theorycrafting belongs in a sandbox, not competitive play. ---
**Author:** ![HoopThrower](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/hoopthrower/32/56873_2.png) [@HoopThrower](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/HoopThrower)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2026, 4:24pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/asian-civs-overhaul/288634/118 "2026-09-07T16:24:27Z")
![image](https://forums.ageofempires.com/uploads/default/original/3X/f/3/f35237e7f9ad8a5b8320a0843d1553d1ce4df23e.jpeg) The cooler option would be to give Koreans the organ gun that also functions as flamethrower when you come into melee range. ---
**Author:** ![Quirriff](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/quirriff/32/66356_2.png) [@Quirriff](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Quirriff)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2026, 5:55pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/asian-civs-overhaul/288634/119 "2026-09-07T17:55:09Z")
If facing Huss/skirm in a 8:2 ratio has china then forbidden army is the best bet. Both Iron Flail and Meteor hammer are heavy cav which counter skirm and break even with other heavy cav if they make Goons: territorial and Old Han ---
**Author:** ![M00Z1LLA](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/m00z1lla/32/104042_2.png) [@M00Z1LLA](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/M00Z1LLA)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2026, 5:58pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/asian-civs-overhaul/288634/120 "2026-09-07T17:58:36Z")
Why not both? ![image](https://forums.ageofempires.com/uploads/default/original/3X/4/b/4b1979dbd236097476c5ab9a0602a7e494ede742.png) I’d like to see the [Yongwon Pilbi](https://en.namu.wiki/w/%EC%9C%B5%EC%9B%90%ED%95%84%EB%B9%84) book it comes from as it says there are a bunch of other weapons described but I can only find a few pages. I found a [the actual gun](https://dapsa.kr/blog/?p=141270#:~:text=5%205,2024) though so this thing was real. ![image](https://forums.ageofempires.com/uploads/default/original/3X/9/2/9223412f2d3548fb79b585f6a5944befcc9a1fd5.png) ---
**Author:** ![HoopThrower](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/hoopthrower/32/56873_2.png) [@HoopThrower](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/HoopThrower)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2026, 6:02pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/asian-civs-overhaul/288634/121 "2026-09-07T18:02:13Z")
There was an illustrated reprint recently but it’s only available in Korea. (I should know, I tried and failed to get it.) [Previous page](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/asian-civs-overhaul/288634.md?page=5) [Next page](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/asian-civs-overhaul/288634.md?page=7)