With all the respect, you are changing too many core mechanics that have been in the game for nearly 20 years.
Those may work for new asian civs but you can not do such changes on a definitive edition of a game.
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Confucian Academy - A fireworks/gunpowder factory would correspond better with what it does. Could add a few more features like the fireworks stun ability (similar to Hannover) and detonation when destroyed.
Karni Maya - A stepwell would fit perfectly with the current function.
You realise that the british weren’t the only foreigners. infact India has the dubious honor of beeing a country more often united by outsiders than insiders.
Though let’s be honest. Neighbourhood wasn’t great.
Hey man!
To be honest, I was largely inspired by your old posts/Ideas on this and just added a bit of my own research. What I’ve put together here is mostly a adapted copy focusing on the simplest changes the devs could realistically implement.
You’re right, I didn’t think of them at all. They would probably work even better than having two regional magistrates walking around.
Yeah, I also think one Indian hero should be enough, although there could be arguments for making him ride a horse/camel depending on how much India needs the “faster” hero for Age I.
Also Ideally I try to give ideas that change as little as possible. So while I really love the Chinese card rework you came up with back then, simply changing the current cards a little would already go long way. Especially because the artwork already fits from back then (TAD).
I reckon they simply realized that the units wouldn’t need more stats so they gave the cards different stats, but things changed over time. And now it comes in handy, and would make everything more streamlined. It’s especially good, because it mostly targets Age IV china which actually needs a change compared to the fine FF they have.
Again, I agree with you, but the odds that they change all or just most of the wonders now completely is very unlikely, Ideally just make name changes to them and keep as much as possible. Wonders like the White Pagoda are obviously completely out of place and should be changed if possible.
I’d argue that the Japanese Wonders while not perfect, some simple name changes would already be sufficient. And India is a mix of both.
With all due respect to you but no respect to Big Huge Games, the TAD civs are designed like ass. They need a rework.
And with how much they changed Native American and European civs, there’s no good reason to make an exception for Asian ones.
Another change I’d make to it is make it work like a fort/castle, like Agra Fort already does. And maybe the reworked Chinese could also get a wonder that works like that.
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Tell me which native core mechanic they have removed.
Tribal market is just mining with extra steps, plaza is a reskinned firepit and the civs gameplay keeps the same. Just new cards and HC aesthetics.
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And when did anyone suggest a more extreme change here?
Though personally I think reskinning the plaza wasn’t an extreme enough change. I’d rather have had it removed because of how fantasious it is.
That can work too, though you’re basically giving up the model for one of the least distinctive Wonders in the game. The Confucian Academy doesn’t visually look like a factory.
In my view, the Bazaar makes sense for having a boost aura that applies to all type of resource gathering, and if needed, the building itself could also function as a Market, while the Stepwell makes the aura seem like it would only really make sense for farming. But, it’s still a good suggestion. I’m fine with both of them.
Maybe. But if we’re looking for references for Indian heroes, I’d imagine figures from native political entities like the Mughals would definitely take priority.
I think the Old Han Reform card must be changed one way or another. First of all, its impact isn’t limited to just the Old Han Army. I think it also gives CKN and Qiang way too high stats in the late game. These two units are supposed to become cheaper and easier to mass over time but relatively still weak, to give them a distinct niche from Changdao and Arquebusier.
If there were an Age IV card that let them upgrade directly to at least Disciplined, while also making them train faster and cheaper instead of being stronger, I think that could be a really interesting change for the FF gameplay.
I think either they won’t change any Wonder at all, or if one of Wonders is allowed to be changed, then there’s no reason the others shouldn’t be changed as well.
Yeah. Once the Summer Palace is reskinned and renamed to a Barbican, it should be able to fire and defend itself just like the Tenshu and Qila.
Couldn’t agree more.
Designing Asian civs around overpowered warrior monks, combined with a bunch of Wonders that are either completely out of place lore-wise (they should exist in their respective homelands) or don’t fit the time frame (many of them are much older), makes the whole thing feel like something the devs just came up with 20 years ago after watching a Shaolin kung fu show and some Asian travel programs on TV. The Asian cultures are portrayed way too superstitiously and impractically in the game. They’re made to rely on monks for war and developing their towns, and they’re obsessed with building extravagant architecture instead of more practical, functional town infrastructure.
While I’d definitely support adding a Persian + Omani or Siamese + Burmese DLC to the game, I really don’t want to see them designed in the same way. If the new Asian civs are still built around this kind of stereotypical exoticism, I’d be disappointed enough to just skip the DLC.
In fact, if you read through the suggestions carefully, most of them are really just reskins and renames. There are a lot of things listed, but not that many are actually changed in a fundamental way.
The Caravan Leader and Caravan Guard still work basically the same way as the Shaolin Master and Disciple, with at most some upgrades being changed from combat-related to economic ones.
The Golden Pavilion could be replaced with a Blacksmith. We’re simply making military upgrades come from a building that actually forges weapons and equipment, rather than from a temple.
Toshogu is replaced with a more generic Taisha dedicated to praying for a bountiful harvest. It still attracts animals and provides a trickle of resources, but the theme makes more sense.
Have the Folk Temple replace the Temple of Heaven, since overseas Chinese immigrant communities would typically build temples dedicated to Chinese folk religion as the center of their communities or towns, definitely not imperial sacrificial sites meant for the emperor. The function would remain exactly the same.
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I’d actually put money on our most recent Devs not veering to orientlism/exoticism - this was mainly a Big Huge Games thing. Current Devs certainly have a deep interest in history, so I’d say we’re probably safe. I mean, look the BHG developed Japan civ (which to be fair is probably the most ‘accurate’ out of the AD civs - Japan fanboys!) now can be diverged into Meji Japan along with a reformed unit roster - you just don’t normally get that historical attention in other RTS!
(I hope that they can look at that kind of attention to the Indians at some point though - prizing the British East India element away!)
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The Mughals were preciscly such an “outsider” you realise that?
Definitely not on the same level of “outsider” as those Europeans.
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Yep. Mughals controlled a vast region and were the dominant power so it makes sense.
To be more historically accurate the Chu Ko Nu should be nerfed to do weak damage but have poison like jungle bowmen…as they were historically pretty awful in terms of penetration power so they made up for it with poison.
Temples reforming outlaws is fine but I don’t like my mercenaries being ‘repentant’. African civs get their outlaws and mercenaries for different buildings.
But you can’t balance Asian civs without fixing the consulate system and balance…That’s where the problem with Asian civs begin…Big Huge Games went way too far with racial stereotypes when doing Asian Dynasties…and the consulate was a crutch to fill in gaps…Except they’re frustrating and unfun or just exploited for a few things then ignored…
That being said there’s quite a bit of potential in consulates…
Aren’t Chu Ko Nu nonsense units if you truly wanna be “historically accurate” anyway?
They were used less in armies but more in civil defence; But they were not nonsense.
So I changed a lot of the Stuff now in the main post, in fact it has gotten so long that I always had to delete it and add it afterward because the changes in it would be too much.
Yeah, obviously building Chu Ko Nu is just “stupid” but tbf China doesnt have them because they used them in the military, but because its an Iconic thing for China to have them in Age of Empires.
You’re right yes, but that would just overcomplicate things for this unit. It already does its damage over 3 instances, also giving poison damage would be the cherry on top.
Also guys, if a Explorer Rework were to happen, do you think the current Hero Cards would have to be changed and if yes what would you change?
I think out of all these Cards Walk the Rice Paper could perhaps just stay as it is. The explorer not being a religious monk is important, but in Age IV getting a “super” Hero that is a Shaolin Master would be arguably fine imo. Similar to the Warchiefs for the native American civs.
If I had creative control I’d remove chu ku nu as a military unit (replace with a normal X-bow unit) and turn them into emergency units like Militiamen but with poison…That’d be more historically accurate.
But the whole Consulate system needs some serious change…Fix that before considering a new Asian civ.
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I’d do the exact same - militia units only
Not that I disagree, it’s just unlikely considering the direction they took chukonu in every AoE game for now