Balance change ideas for next patch

This one is aimed for the December patch.

Buff to Champion upgrade

  • I am not asking for a buff to Champion, but a buff to its upgrade. The upgrade costs 750F 350G but now does not provide enough value, because the Longswordsmen and 2HS have +1 melee armor. The change was fantastic, but it bridges the gap between 2HS and Champion for a steep cost.

  • Suggestions: The obvious one is to lower the cost of the upgrade. Another one is to revert the melee attack of 2HS to 11 (as in AoC). Or possibly reduce the attack bonus vs eagles to +6 (same as LS).

Bohemians on Arena

  • This one is kind of obvious. They are so flexible on Arena with Castle drop into Hussite Wagons. Unlike the Castle drop into War Wagons or Arambai, Hussite Wagons need not fear monks until Redemptiom. Hussite Wagons are much more faster than Organ Guns, while Bohemians have kind of better economy than Portuguese too, not to mention much better Pikes.

  • Suggeston: Remove free Gold Shaft Mining and free Stone Shaft Mining. Thumb Ring added to tech tree in exchange for that.

One time techs

  • First Crusade: entirely remove the spawn aspect of Serjeants considering Sicilians have got a great Imperial Age UT now.

  • Flemish Revolution: remove the villager conversion mechanic. Every TC (built or new) spawns a batch of 3 or 4 Flemish Militia, also enables Flemish Militia at TC. Cost adjusted accordingly. The spawn mechanic of built is the same as First Crusade, while that of new TCs is the Tatar Sheep bonus. This change plays into the defensive nature of the tech. Flemish Militia stats maybe adjusted accordingly as well.


  • A general boost for Arabia needed within the boundaries of the theme.

  • Suggestions: Builders as well as Repairers work 30% faster. Bloodlines, Arson, (Parthian Tactics) and Onager upgrades do not cost gold.


  • Aimed at removing the polarising nature of the civ in mid game vs in late game

  • Wheelbarrow and Hand Cart cost -175F -50W and -50 seconds to research. This basically means that while you get Wheelbarrow for free, you still need to invest 25 seconds (same as villager). Hand Cart on the other hand, costs 125F 150W but is researched near instantly (5 seconds). Bombard Cannon added to tech tree.


  • Team bonus: Enemy TC locations visible at the start.


  • Team bonus: Imperial Skirmisher upgrade available in Imperial Age. Imperial Skirmishers +5 HP.

  • Castle Age Obuch -1 melee armor or Elite Obuch +1 attack.

  • Reasons: Poles struggle a lot vs Cavalry Archer civilizations. The Elite Obuch upgrade also provides quite less value compared to its cost.

Monks Present monk RNG is 4 to 10 Wololos. It can be reduced to 5 to 8 Wololos. Building RNG can be left unchanged.

Bug fix

  • Leiciai ignore the armor of the building Folwark too.

I agree with the change to the Vietnamese.

Why? Because it is really easy to ask your Vietnamese Teammate to ping the enemy TC when you are talking to them over voice chat. But it is much more hassle if you random que into a team game and might have teammates that don’t respond / don’t speak your language.

Vietnamese actually have a pretty good pickrate in amateur tournaments with premate teams but are still on the lower end when it comes to ranked teamgames :thinking:


This looks good!

I disagree with your other suggestions besides nerfing Obuch and bohemians, but I don’t like offsetting nerfd with buffs elsewhere. I feel like all this does is make the nerf either pointless in the first place or causing civs to become overly smooth without interesting edges like missing crucial techs or weaknesses.

The bonus already affects repairers.

Well, it’s a super minor nerf, but it may work.

The problem is, that while vikings are good, they aren’t the strongest. So nerfing just them wouldn’t do that much good.

Also, why BBC? They already have FU SR, isn’t it enough? And vikings never used gunpowder.

Ok but I don’t see why they should lose the IS. It’s a good unit for 1v1, it’s just a stupid team bonus.

Just make the IS a standard bonus, the location of the enemy as the TB, and maybe have paper money give back 800 gold instead of 500 gold.

Yeah let’s make the obuch even more strong and cost effective with the IS… and it’s not like poles already have an unique upgrade for a trash unit…


To play the anti siege role. They already have poorest cavalry in the game (Malay have Elephants though).

  1. Poles struggle against Cavalry archers. The Imperial Skirmisher upgrade is more anti-cav-archer than anti-archer.
  2. Polish Winged Hussars have a completely different role because of missing last armor upgrade. They also miss Halberdier upgrade.

That is a problem only for the late game, and only against onagers. But having SE themselves, they can fight onagers with onagers, and add berserkers or LC.

Ok poles struggle against 1 unit which is even that common… big deal.

Like, almost any civ is have some bad marchup, and the IS won’t improve them much against CA, but it would make the obuch+skirm combo really strong, too strong.

Still, it’s a unique upgrade for 2 units in the same civ…

Let’s also give them imperial camel, or a special upgrade for halbs…


Defending vs forward castle wagons isnt really that difficult. Mangos or redemption monks totally do the trick. Wagons are also quite expensive on gold and wood so even with free gold mining it’s not that easy to add mangos behind. Also wagons on their own might be tanky but don’t really threaten anything of yours. Knights and rams for instance a pretty good to clear the push up. Civs like turks, Spanish or portos have way better pushes of that kind.

Bohemians are indeed super strong on arena but not because of one tc wagon push but because of boom into insane army comp in imp or monk rush.

Btw bohemians don’t have thumb ring because they get chemistry in castle age which gives their archers more atk. Giving them tr would be too strong for open maps as that would probably give them the strongest xbows in the game.

I dont understand how the op thinks having +1 attack crossbows with thumb ring in castle age is balanced


Unnecessary in my opinion.

They should nerf their monks: too good to be gold free.
Remove the Imp Tech or remove some crucial techs from their monastery.

That could be good.

Vikings aren’t that bad in late game, considering how strong they are in early game.
Siege Ram, great infantry, good UU, Onagers, Heavy Scorpion with SE, good archers and even a decent University, if you ask me.
They don’t need BBC and for historical reasons they should not have it.

If that’s the problem why we don’t give them the last archer armor?
I don’t understand all that changes about Imperial Skirmisher.
In my opinion they have decent archers, they have siege ram, infantry UU with 100hp, super strong Hussars (13 atk + trample is insane for a trash unit) and their skirms can do FULL DAMAGE if Obuchs are paired with them.
I don’t think they need some military addition.


Agree. Its a straight nerf for vietnamese.

Currently they can still flair the TCs locations to their teammates and most of times it works. If they don’t understand why you are flairing then you have bad teammates.

Yeah maybe 450F 250G?

Would rather just remove free stone techs and use that somewhere else.

The first Crusade change is okay, but Im honestly not a fan of the conversion resistance for their knights

I think that the easy fix is to rather than reworking Flemish Rev to just rework Flemish Militia. Rn they are basically better Champions, and that just makes them extremely hard to counter for a lot civs and super easy to stop for others. Imo instead they should be thougher spears that arent as easily countered by archers.

Eh, not a fan…

Maybe, but maybe just making the techs more affordable for other civs may be easier

Not a fan of this change, doesnt fir Poles at all.

Leitis dont ignore the armour of buildings


To be brutally honest these suggestions are lazy and detract from the discussions that make valid or thoughtful suggestions

You randomly picked changes based on random criteria.

Nerf the CA obuch or buff the imp simply because the tech is too cheap? What?

Nerf the 2hs because the champ upgrade is too expensive?

Sicilians with an almost useless UT then? Build an entire castle in CA simply to make KT harder to convert???

Gunpowder for vikings?

The only one I support is the monk one but that’s been suggested by a number of people


Are you sure about that?

The usually do that at the start of the game once. If they don’t then you have to chat. After you scouted your base and send your scout to your opponent you probably want the ping again just to make sure your sending it off correctly. Therefore you have to chat up your mate again.

No, it’s not a big issue it’s just one of those tiny little additional advantages that premate teams have that are completely unnecessary.

If your mate can ping the enemy TCs any time in the dark age on the minimap, why not show it on there in the first place?

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Well, arguably franks chinese and mayans are considered the top tier on arabia, so nerfing vikings and not these tree for example doesn’t seem like a good idea for me.


In top level Vikings are considered pnly behind Chinese and at the same level as Mayans from what I remember. Yes Frank dominate lower elos but in top games they are only A tier

We need more nerfs no more buffs…

  1. You don’t buff champions by nerfing ths. And champions don’t really need buffs besides faster research time for ls-ths-champ upgrades. It’s already impossible to trade cost effectively against slavs/japanese.
  2. Bohemians are fine. They are good on arena but not at all impossible to kill and die pretty hard to cav archers. Just be more aggressive in early imp before they can get their dream comp. I would say they are in fact worse than malay and turks in 1v1.
    Why aren’t you complaining about vikings/italians/portuguese dominance on islands instead?
  3. The current state of those techs is fine. Flemish is hard to pull off without dying and only really works against cavalry civs, if they get a few HC or arbs on the field and buy enough time with castles it loses your game more often than it wins it.
  4. Just make the bonus 50%, repairing doesn’t come in play in most games and if it does its once or twice, not really relevant. I support removing the gold cost from BL, PT and the barracks techs, will be a nice buff for 1v1s while keeping their flexibility theme.
  5. Vikings will be a bottom tier civ without their eco and they already have a very poor post imp, and they die to knight skirm all ins in the castle age. Also they die to siege onager which is the exact reason they shouldn’t get BBC. Gunpowder didn’t even exist in their timeline so it’s a very nonsensical suggestion.
  6. Vietnamese are the civ that gets imp skirm because their trash would be awful without it and they would die to hussar skirm spam too hard. Also fits their identity of archery range units. How are imp skirms a thing for poles? If anything, poles should get halbs and last archer armor.
  7. Obuchs are fine. It’s just that all other infantry UUs are bad and need buffs.
  8. You are buffing monks. Please no. Monk consistency is needed but make it 5-9 or 6-8, don’t reduce overall conversion time.

What if flemish revolution turn all vils in flemish militia but just for a short time, so you have a gap of time to repel the enemy or do a high pressure and then militia turn into vils again, but while the Flemish rev is running you can´t train new vils

Maybe +1 atk for the champions could work, not that it would make the biggest difference, but just as littel compensation.

Don’t think Bohemians need an arena change, they are top tier arena civ, as intended. But they aren’t better than the other top tier civs imo. Maybe you could argue to improve bohemians on open maps a bit. But how? I am actually more concerned about Bohemians in TGs. I think there they indeed could use some special bonus to make them a good flank civ.

  • First crusade: Would also reduce the spawning, but I actually still like it that it spawns something. I just don’t like that you need to make the inf upgrades to make it work. Imo Sicilians should get the inf armo upgrades for free so a turned down first crusade can have an immediate impact and set up for a serjeant/donjon rush switch.

  • Flemish Revolution needs complete rework.

Not sure about that. I think Spanish are ok-ish atm. They just aren’t a top-tier open map civ.

Yeah that’s a weird one. Think you are right that the civs design is just… The only thing they really have is their eco bonus, ok also their infantry can sometimes be quite strong. But in general I also don’t like civs that are basically only carried by an eco bonus, it’s silly.

While I agree that they have a weakness to cav archers, I don’t think that change would cut it. I think Poles design is too volatile. They have possibly insansely OP things: Folwark, Szlachta Privileges, Obuch + Ranged. But If you can pressure them early they often die before it comes to this. Alos their bad lategame scaling makes their insane midgame power weird, as if it comes to late, you can just outtech poles (cav archers are one of the best examples for that) and they fall behind again… A bit more flattened powerspikes would benefit the civ imo.

Tune down Folwark and Szlachta Privileges a bit but less punishing to go for them. Improve the lategam scaling of poles a bit instead.