With 4 relics. (20 characters)
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Thatās not true: on top you have japs, malay, persians and italians when it comes to hybrid maps
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This is one of the things i want to be discussed.
I dont think the wood bonus is good enough for a full archer rushingā¦ maybe it is good for transitioning to archers/skirms after m@a/scout opening.
Edit: similarly, i have read that 20% gold discount of portuguese allow them to make 3 m@a and loom without mining.
On maps like cross people prefer a lot huns, vikings, celts, even mongols and Byzantines in some hybrid maps.
Now Portuguese and Koreans got a buff.
I mean, clearly they are above average, in the top 10 reasonably, for sure in the top 15. Which is not that great considering that they are way behind in all the other maps.
Another discussed way to buff italians leaving them untouched on water is balancing the dock discount (nerfed) with the age up discount (buffed), or extend the discount (reduced ofc) to something else, in order to ensure that Italians spare a similar amount of resources on islands, but become viable on land.
This balance should be easy to compute by math actually. And actually you may also choose a right balance. I will try the computation. So what are possible balance with the dock discount?
On maps like cross italians are considered top tier. When i was in MBLās chat and i asked him what he prefered between japs and itas he said that both are really strong civ for that map.
I heard the same thing by Vodka_L and many other good players so no, italians are not bad on hybrid map: they are top tier
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their picking rate does not say that for all the hybrid maps. But in general, the more important water, the better they are.
Sure I am not saying they are bad. They are good, but not a top pickā¦ and ofc it depends on map and player.
Still a easy way to balance italians could be the balance between dock discount and something else for on landā¦ age up is a first option ofc, but also other ideas are welcome
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Lithuanians are cool as well
On hybrid? Really? Just because of the starting food?
Itās your opinion against the ones of 2k+ players. No offense, but their understanding of the game ia way better than yours (and mine too tbf)
picking rate and win rate from ranked games barely means something. Based on pick rate and win rate from ranked game goths are the best civ while they clearly arenāt
I mean, since a lot of pro players prefer other civs to them, it means that they are not the strongest one. But ofc I agree that in some hybrid maps water matters a lot, then italians and Vikings can shine a bit more probably entering the top 5 after the civs you correctly mentioned
Being slightly less powerful than japanese and malay in hybrid maps is no small feat. Yet again, we are talking about your feeling vs the feeling of 2k+ players. If Vodka_L tells me italians are really strong on cross and with the right build order they are basically at the same level of japanese, i trust him way more than Iād trust you
Sure but then why pro players even strong than him do not pick italians on cross?
Again I agree with you that they are a good civ on hybrid maps, but I think that while they are in the top 2 on islands, you agree that they are not a top 2 civs on hybrid maps. In some hybrid maps top 5, in other not at all. Which is enough to say that they are good on hybrid maps as you say. But clearly not a top pick.
I mean, I am saying you and mbl are right on this. You are not saying that are comparable to islands! Which I say is very wrong, as other pro players say (and you correctly said)
Thatās not true, the only water civs that are often seen are only the ones with good land bonus too, like the vikings or the Malay.
And thatās not true either, cheaper age ups alone donāt do anything, both their eco and military are standard, most of other civs either have more powerful unis or good eco/discount bonus that value a lot more than 345f and 150g for a whole game.
Italians are behind vikings, Mongols, Celts, and a lot of other civs with better eco and a better land army.
On paper yes, in reality I watched a game when hera played vs burmese with italians on cross, he literally had every possible civ and map advantages that he could have, and however he won only by a little margin.
Despite having a bit better eco start with cheaper FS, in reality a lot of other bonus (like japs fishing, mongol hunting, Celts and so onā¦) allow the other civ to have a better eco lead.
And on maps like cross, where itās the land army that win, italians struggle to keep up with strong and fast civs, like Mongols, huns, meso civs, malians and so onā¦ all standard land civs.
Well, of course, we all are here to share our opinions, otherwise we should just stop losing our time here and simply let the pros discuss and play the game alone.
They may say that italians are top tier in cross, and other hybrid maps, but I almost never see them pick Italians.
A lot less. Both for eco and army.
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Yes, the starting food allows them to gather wood instantly instead of food, so they can build their first dock and fisher ships very fast.
Actually in the past we have discussed another way to balance Italians. The idea was to reduce the dock tech discount to buff the age up discount. With a proper balance you can leave them in a similar spot on water maps, but you can give them a more reasonable playstyle in land maps. I think I will move this idea in the topic on August balance changes.
I am not a big fan of this, but at least a mathematical solution exists to ensure similar water performance with a land boost.
Picking Italians on Islands, TI, migration and a bunch of hybrid maps is no-brainer. GX as a UU is a specialist unit but I donāt think theyāre useless at all. Lots of TGs they can come in handy. Maybe give them +1 range or something when elite, but overall theyāre not a bad unit, and Italians is a jack of all trades-type civ despite not being a powerhouse. Once random civ preference takes hold again, I doubt youāll see top players unhappy to find themselves with Italians in 1v1s or tgs.
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They arenāt useless, their concept and stats are fine, but they are broken, since they take so long to train that it impossible to have a decent number to accomplish anything.
Nah, a TT reduction in castle age is more than enough.
Their problem is that they donāt have anything on pure land, cheap age up isnāt that much alone when compared to other civs bonus, and they lack a powerful units. The gunpowder discount comes into play to late, and it regard already underused units.
Still, itās true, they donāt need too much, just a minor bonus, like for example something the teutons on their first patch (+1MA) or like the tartars (free TR, for the Italians it could be free archer armor).
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Your patches to the game are the only thing that will keep the game alive. Thank you!!!
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Why do you think this (your) idea is bad? It sounds to me really good actually. If pavise becomes a bonus, then you can choose whatever you want for the UT. A boiling oil like solution or something better. For instance:
- pavise becomes a bonus
- silk road move to castle age
- imperial UT: maybe some team effect (like applied to all condos). Or even extra speed/hp for the trading unit. The effect can be very small
Well, that why Iām against it.
Find another bonus it a pain in the ***. Both for the balance and the devs. They havenāt even changed atheism, which is really a useless UT, asking to change a decent UT it would be too much.
Also, pavise as a UT work right now, itās cheap, it affect 3 units, so changing it for no reason would just make things more complicated.
And finally, the UT itās historically accurate and it gives the civ some identity, wich is a secondary role of the UTs that we shouldnāt forget.
The problem isnāt pavise itself, the problem is that itās not enough alone, and itās a lot more easy to simply give a small bonus to the civ without changing too much.
Also, the problem that pavise is too similar to viets bonus would remain. My idea is that yes, italians should pay for their advantage on their archers, but after they paid it, they should have a stronger advantage.
That can be achieved by giving a bonus that can be stacked with pavise (armor for free, +1PA) or by simply buffing pavise.
Coming up with a completely new UT that also solve this problem is the more complicated solution.
Itās not that is a bad thing, but itās longer and complicated, so there is more risk of disturbing the delicate balance of the game right now and there is more risk to make mistakes along the road. Plus itās a lot of work more for the devs, that seem already stretched thin.
Silk road is a good tach that fit the imp UT, there is no reason to move it.