Balance Ideas for December

Before starting, I just want to say that I know there’re more importlaaaaaaaaaaaaagnt issues to solve, but I can’t do anything about it. Also, I would like to stat that for me the game is in a great balance state, and just some minor changes should be done.

So, let’s beggin:

Buffs:
Not to many civs are weak nowadays. I can only think of a few, and two of those have a problem on common: 100% dependency on their UU

Burmese: The first civ that depends too much on their UU. Without Arambai OPness, Burmese are left practically with nothing. Their cavalry is just standard (up to late imperial age), which is lackluster for a pocket civ. They infantry is excelent, but you don’t pick civs for their infantry (except for Malians, maybe). My solution is to combine their 3 strong branches into a good synergie:

Barracks, Stable and monastery Units are more resistent to conversion

Basically, giving free faith to those units (and of course, removing faith from the tech tree) will give burmese some other strategy than Arambai. Their elephant will get an actual civ bonus (in comparision to Khmer ones, that get better bonuses for elephants) and also their knights, resulting this in Burmese being a decent knight civ, with the possibility of mixing in some elephants, withouth buffing their final stats. (barracks units don’t need more convertion resistance, but sounds nice. free faith for monks it’s maybe OP, so if too much of a bonus, then maybe only barrack and stable units could recieve the bonus) also, the bonus could be something between Faith and Teutons Team bonus, if Faith full effect is too OP

//EDIT
Other options I though for burmese are Skirms +1PA per age
It could be starting either in feudal or castle age. If is in feudal, they they will become suddenly great agains archers civs. If is in castle age, they will be more than decent against archers.

Also tough about giving Scout/knight/elephant line +2 damage against buildings in Castle age and +4 in imperial (numbers could be slightly different, maybe +3/+5 or +3/+6) as a civ bonus, and remove manipur cavalry, changing it for some other unique tech (Maybe a tech that does what Heresy does but only for elephants? IDK, something).

MY main goal is to take away the focus from Arambai and change it to the supposed civ theme, elephants and monks

//

Cumans: With recent kipchack nerf, cumans got hit hard. I think they could use a buff for early castle age, and considering they have the worst SL in the game, well that’s the answer.

SL attack 10% faster or SL have +1 attack would make them really usefull for cumans, since with their quick creation time and cheap cost, SL could became a better option than knights after doing a 2-tc boom in feudal age (you make 4 stables and start pumping out SL)

Goths: The eternal quesiton. How to buff goths? I don’t really like the free Loom thing. I would rather change it for hunt animals lasting 25% longer but it’s just an idea. Otherwise, I think they should get Plate barding armor , to have a viable option besides infantry in late game

Indians: Indians lack an answer for 1v1 against anything that is not a cavalry civ. Plus, now with weaker hussars dealing with eagles is even harder. And I think the solution is elephants. No. not battle elephants. Archer ones.
So far, we have seen how civ identities have been changed, for the best (Koreans is the best example) so why not change an useless UU?

I propose to completely overhaul it: Less life (200 Hp - 250 for Elite), speed of 0.9, and fire several arrows (3 for non elite, 5 for elite). 7 damage first arrow, 2 damage other arrows and +1attack for arrow to Eagle warriors (or maybe just +3 attack to eagle warriors / + 5 for elite). Those are stats similar to chu ko nu. Of course, I’m just making numbers, since changing that much an unit need testing and balance, but I think something that way could be indian answer to archers and eagles (price and creation time of the unit could be also ajusted to balance).

Other Idea is Shatagni giving +10% extra accuracy on top of +1 range
that could both solve weakness against infantry and archers.

Italians: Still a little lackluster on land maps, but just a little. They only need something going for them on land. And being a jack of all trades civ, I think they need a generic bonus:

Military buildings cost only 100W

This would save a considerable amount of wood in the early game, allowing italians to go for an earlier feudal, into double ranges. While their archers main remain vainilla, they would have and edge on numbers.

Other options I tought about was 20% extra Hp for Skirms and Halbs (too similar to viet bonus, would help them holding on) and +1 melee armor to archers (good agains cavalry, but useless as a flank civ, since you’re mainly facing archers)
I think cheaper military buildings would be the best for Italian, because synergies well with both the open tech tree and their cheaper advance through ages.

//EDIT
Also, changing the age up discount to 20% and the dock discount to 40% would make them better in land and worst in water at the same time
//

Malay: Oh boy, if there’s a civ that hates DE is Malay. They being nerfed countless times, in an infinity of ways (Harbors have been nerf, forced levy, elephants in general, and their advance faster bonus has been nerfed). All in all, it’s not a bad civ, and still full of options, but I think it could use one or 2 small buffs

Karambit cost now 25F 10G (-5g)
Harbors now do 4 damage (+1)

Small buffs for a civ that it’s not bad, but could be better

Spanish: Same scenario than Burmese. Spanish without conquis, sucks. FU trash don’t help trough the game, and having no significant eco bonus neither do. that being said, I came with an Idea that have both eco and military advantage:

Military units cost -15% food
Yes, I know this includes the Magyar bonus, but I also think magyar bonus could perfectly be 20%. Or maybe This new spanish bonus could affect everything except Scout line (and in that case, the bonus could be 20%).

Anyway, this would suit every spanish strategy, and make them more viable as a pocket/kight civ, exalting their good trash. The fact that you don’t go archers with spanish only make this bonus better

Nerfs:

Mayans: For me, Mayans are still a little to good. 4 eco bonus for a civ is too much. They’re that good that usually they don’t need to go for obsidian arrows (put that in perspective).
I wouldn’t know how to nerf them, but I’m pretty sure they culd be nerfed a little.

Tatars: Tatars last buff made them a little to good. They boom too well, and can go into CA inmediately, with free thumb ring. It’s nuts. Plus, their have a pretty decent SL now, (1 armor and 2 PA it’s quite good).

I think tatars should lose some part of their bonus: either getting 1 sheep when you get to feudal and 1 sheep per extra TC, Or just 2 sheeps when you get to feudal. That will help them to get through the early ages but won’t give them the free boom they have right now.

Civ changes (not buff not nerf):

Saracens: I still keep thinking that Saracens archers are a little too good wasting buildings. I would change that somehow. probably, I would change their team bonus to Camels move 10% faster. That way, their camels will have something extra in castle age, and their archers will became siegy

//EDIT

As Ornlu Said in his video (and as I though before, along with some other well-know users) It will be great if saracens got a bonus for their castle age camels. Maybe 10 extra hp, and then adjusting zealotry (and Elite Mamelukes) along the way, to make FU saracens camels the same they’re today, while giving some incentive togo for camels in castle age

//

Turks: While Usefull, Turks’ scouts are a little OP, but most of all, they seem like an absolute unit. It’s balanced, but sort of.
I think this change could be reversed, and give turks E. Skirm (and maybe some other minor bonus to compensate).
otherwise, you only have to make scout with turks. nothing else. your whole strategy can rely (in some cases) in spam one unit


And that’s it people. feel free to critize, give your opinion, make questions and order pizza

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Someone might have to move this topic to the AoE2 DE forum.

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already Did it. Thanks!

Burmese: Bad way to improve this faction. Bonus conversion resist for monks can be strong on some matchup and conversion resist for elephant is stupid. I agree they need something but not that.

Cuman is hard to master. I personally suck with them as 90% of the player base. It’s a high rish high reward civ. I don’t think we should change them for now.

Goth: don’t give them last armor upgrade for infantry please… Plate barding armor could be acceptable to get full upgrade hussard. But i don’t think it’s a good idea neither.

Indians: Their last nerf was not rigth. There’s a huge problem with this civ, and it’s probably from its design. For now the only way (in my opinion) to solve their weakness in 1v1 is to add arbalest.

Italians: let’s start by increasing the discount for aging + nerf the dock discount & see. Italians are not far from being an ok civ in arabia.

Malay are ok for now.

Spanish are weird since the conq nerf. I understand this nerf but they need something to balance things out. I don’t know what but food discount can be broken. Don’t forget they get FU trash unit. It’s the only civ with all of these 3 units full upgrade (and BS upgrade cost no gold)

Tatars are strong, i agree. i would go for an extra cow instead of 2 extra sheep. Because 1 sheep is irrevelant and 2 sheeps are too strong

Turc are ok if you remove the bonus PA in dark age and feudal. Especially in dark age. Every one should be punish in the same way if scout goes under TC in dark age.

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Tatars two extra sheep should only count for maximum second TC. Their boom on Arena is too amazing.

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Burmese: Giving resistance to conversion is really similar to the Teuton’s bonus and would probably be really strong for their elephants. Instead, making howdah give +1/+2 would help against their weakness to archer civs while making their elephants more viable.

Cumans: With the kipchak nerf, what if Cumans get bracer? I know this might be to strong, but I think it would be better than buffing their SL. I think the SL needs to be buffed/reworked a little anyway.

Goths: I don’t know what this civ needs, but instant loom plus extra boar damage makes them annoying when they choose to lame. What if they got loom free with feudal age.

Indians: Indians do need some kind of buff in 1v1. While I think that the EA needs a buff, they are already pretty strong if you can get a small bunch of them out. I propose +1 range and +1 damage for the EA and see how that goes.

Italians: Making their military buildings cheaper is a good idea, but their water stills needs to be significantly nerfed.

Malay: They are pretty good already with FU archers, a cheap battle elephant rush, and one of the best late game trash units. Only the karambit really needs a buff, I wonder what would happen if they got life-steal.

Spanish: Their feudal is lacking, but if they can make it to castle they have a good knight rush and conqs are always good. In imp they have paladin and HC and in late imp FU trash. If they need a buff it should be for early game only.

Mayans: Do need a slight nerf to their eco, maybe decreasing their longer lasting resources to 10% would work.

Tartars: Haven’t seen them enough to know if they need to be nerfed.

Saracens: If anything they could use a buff. What if madrasah returned the 33% of gold cost of all units (a cost adjustment might be needed along with that)?

Turks: They are fine for now, they did really need something and they got it while keeping their identity.

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Howfa used to be 1/2 and they chanfe dit because it was op. I don’t really like turks now. To much identity for yhose hussars. Borderline OP. Anyway, thanks for readings and comenting on everything!

Tatars are nowhere OP. Hera just overrated them.

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I don’t think so. Look at Tatar Hussars, they are better than Turkish Hussars. Don’t tell me it requires a Castle, I am not talking about Scouts. It is a cheap Upgrade also effects Steppe Lancers and Cavalry Archers. And in any game we can’t clearly see Tatars Hussars are OP, Turks just weaker version.

Turks without trash their identity (and their skirms aren’t that terrible like Franks and Celts in Imperial Age), Hussars still bad against Halberdiers so it’s not OP. About feudal age, add some spearmen to protect you archers, they are much cheaper than a scout. Or wall yourself and go for fast castle and use melee options (like camels and knights).

Turk player can use 5 options (Cavalry Archers, Knights, Camels, Archers to Crossbowmen, Light Cavalry). Camels and Knights nice against them.

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Turks do have to pay for Light Cavalry and Hussar upgrades and have even better Cav Archers than the Tatars.

In a fully upgraded fight, between Tatar and Turks Hussars + Cav Archers, the Turks will win.

Tatars don’t get free hussar.

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I know. But Trash units used for late game so you can afford 650 gold as Tatar.

Since the howdah nerf, besides the cost already being increased, Battle Elephants have been slightly nerfed and the Arambai have been significantly nerfed, I don’t think it would be OP to return howdah to +1/+2 at this point, but I could be wrong.

More tired balance thread…
Not leave for each comment. But just leave Goths bonus. I think Loom research instantly is balanced and not OP after Patch. Hunt last longer is just minor version of Mongols/Tatars and boring than insta Loom. I think 1 out of 35 civ is ultimate laming civ. it is OK.
And pls don’t give plate mail armor. It become strict OP.

Overall, next balance patch should focus on Newly buffed civ which can be OP and some adjustment are needed. Some pros said now Tatars are borderline OP. Also keep an eye on Turks scout. But not enough data and game yet. Just wait for more data.

Besides, I think Indians need complete redesign. Camel become replacement of Knight was flawed design from start.

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Turks scouts might be a little OP but we should probably see if having OP scouts makes the civ OP.

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I think before thinking on Balance you should consider that the next patch will likely be a smaller one with just a few fixes and a christmas themed event.

We probably don’t gonna see a new big patch until the next year, probably March or April.

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No, please. No more events. Just game stability, pathing and balance. Pleeeaaaseee

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I know but this is the best way to get more consistent and effective balance changes, remember how Goths are badly handled in the February patch then March then April and then 6 months to other change, a total madness.

I also know that Tatars are really strong now, but honestly this is the thing that they really deserved for long time, being among the lines of the top civs in open maps and strong in closed, I must admit that I overestimated the Turks change and that can hold them up from being bad at open maps even when that PA overlaps with another two civs.

What they deserved… Says the totally unbiased guy with the Keshik profil pic :smiley:

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Tatars are ok now, Turks may need the bonus pushed to the Castle Age, because Scouts with +2 PA (after Scale Barding) are a bit too strong.

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