Balance is so close to being perfect

With these OP civs, the advice inevitably is ‘rush hard before they get out of hand’. I heard that a lot about Japan also, but since no one plays Japan anymore (thank god) they aren’t a concern anymore either. That being the only solution indicates an imbalance for sure.

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Sweden was mostly balance but then, they for no reason had to change Hakkapels, becoming them OP, and then they added Giant Grenadiers to their roster.

Other point are Dutch, with their extra villagers plus extra pop slots they were in a good spot but they have got buffs patch after patch. The addition of mercs at barracks feels too much as is the swede bonus while becomes South Africa very strong on team matches as all they do is spam highlanders.

Russia, I dont get why they received infinite huge wood crates when their army is stronger than legacy. Same for their pop cap addition, a chinese bonus.
How is china suppoused to stop russian strelets and cossacks?

Not sure about the neecesity to buff european economy when they are the strongest ones with factories while they have complete rosters with artillery. Spain deserved that rework as their economy was in the weak side. Portugal feitorias still produce too much while they have church card.

Then, we have India, with 5 training cards, really??

And inca with shitty army and useless kallankas as they are too limited.

Germany shouldnt got 2 pop cav, their huge economy doesnt fit with a huge army. Or one or another, not both.

Etc, etc ,etc…

Honest question, what is it about Italy that seems unbalanced to you?

Let’s see. Elmeti available in age 2. Lombards and the ability to spam towers for free that enables a completely safe, unstoppable Fast Industrial with a good eco behind it. The complete lack of the need for map control, allowing Italy’s economy to keep up with or exceed other civilizations without ever being exposed to raids. Age 4 SHADOW-TECHED SPEEDY skirmishers, which you can start massing as soon as you hit age 4. These things are extremely difficult to kill and complement Italy’s turtle FI strategy very nicely, as you can just park them in your base / behind your lombards and snipe anything sieging, and then dodge cannon shots because they are so fast. Additionally, randomly good shadowteched artillery shipments that means you can easily win the artillery war, even though artillery is literally the only thing that has a chance at countering the Italy FI. Unlimited ability to spawn the elmeti / papal lancer unit.

There’s just no reason Italy should get all these good bonuses. A place to start would be to nerf Lombard gather rathers, forcing them out onto the map, reducing the speed of the skirms, making them so they don’t shadowtech to guard, and slightly nerfing their artillery shipments and also making them not shadowtech to guard.

Sorry, no other civ mentioned in this list even comes close to being as broken as Italy is right now.

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I assume you mean this card?
image

The Papal Spearman is available for training starting in Age III.


Your complaint is that not being able to make an effective Rush against Italy a defensive civilization? Also, good economy? You literally sacrifice the entire Italian economy on upgrades to make up for the lack of villagers at the start.


Why do you think the Italian economy is good? also because you think it doesn’t need map control?, especially with how demanding it is for resources for the Lombards.


According to this App the Bersagliere does not have shadow technology that affects its speed, maybe your complaint is the ability?


It has the same shooting distance as a normal guerrilla, and also I see no difference between using the Lombards as a wall and having Bersagliere to fire against units or using the Dutch banks as a wall and having guerrillas to fire against units.
PS: Can’t the other civilizations attack by taking cover behind buildings?

Besides, your complaint is basically that the civilization is well thought out, having units that complement a strategy is good design, all civilizations should be equally well designed.


Cannon shots can’t be dodged, what are you talking about? This isn’t AOEII where you could dodge artillery.


Again, what shadow technology are you talking about? The Espingarda has a slight improvement in the attack with the industrial technology, which is not free.


Defensive FIs are not countered by attacking the opponent with a constant Rush, they are countered with an FI + economic boom that allows attacking with economic superiority.
In short, you are using the wrong strategy. :expressionless:


The Papal Spearman is an Italian unit, it’s not a mercenary, and it’s not easy to use either, especially since it interrupts shipments, has a fixed number of 3 Spearmen per Papal “ship,” and requires you to have 300 of each resource.


Lombards don’t gather resources, they require a lot of cards to be profitable, they are theoretically the reason Italy only has one factory, and they also require a lot of micromanagement to be useful.

PS: Villagers gather resources, Lombards only transform them into half of the other two resources.


That doesn’t make sense, that would just make them more like a normal guerrilla fighter, plus you should worry about something else about the Bersagliere, but I’m going to keep that to myself, because you clearly have no idea how the unit work. XD


Of course, the Swedes with giant grenadiers, the Dutch with banks that directly give resources, the English with a housing boom that only requires wood and the United States with its invincible machine guns are clearly nothing compared to Italy.


The only thing I get from this conversation is that Italy is well balanced and there are too many people complaining without knowing how civilization really works.

The Lombards are not that great, they are unbearably demanding at the micromanagement level and they don’t give you anything, the Bersagliere are good, but they fall short with no cards in your deck to compensate for their late acquisition and the artillery only has an extra damage bonus in industrial, which is good for people who like revolutions.

Regarding the papal units, I think your complaint is unfounded, especially since Italy has the slowest start and needs to invest all its resources in improvements to not be left behind, you are almost never going to invest those resources in papal units, at best in Age III you send yourself something.

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what’s your ELO, and what was your ELO before you started playing Italy

Zero, I don’t play competitive.

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he is saying that they are shadow-teched and they are speedy, not that they are shadow tech to become speedy

they can be you do need to have very good micro for them but cannons lock to position before they fire so if you know the animation you can dodge it

the way its played on the high level is you use the spam of buildilngs, lombards and basillca for xp to send the deposit shipments which fuel your eco, doesnt matter if they are as long as there is some res in there it generates xp and that matters more. since they get enough xp from their in base activity they also dont need map control

were you not here just like 1 month ago when italy was completely dominating the top end?

in most short 1v1 games you dont need to care about profiting from the res if you can get your res to align to get you where you want. so the lombard’s role as unraidable crates gathering is more then enough eco for a lot of situations. and since you dont need to use your natural res they dont need map control

italy FI by 10 mins with and can start pumping guard skirms immediately, you aint getting a civ that can try to out eco them and get on par units in the same time frame

it would still be a skirm with higher base attack and a stun abilty, and im pretty sure he knows more than you tbh

if you dont play competitive whats the point of commenting on balance?

Zero, I don’t play competitive.

this answer was even better than what i was hoping for.

yea sorry man idk what to say, if you play the game competitively so many things matter that just won’t even occur to you if you don’t have experience playing competitively. it’s just a completely different game, where timings down the second matter a whole lot more than in casual lobbies or single player. in competitive play, Italy is very, very strong, and should be nerfed.

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We need a “supremecy” “team” and “treaty” tag cause unless you are familiar with such modes people’s love of just making statements without clarifiying what mode they are talking about makes these discussions hard to have
Just like 1v1 italy is op and treaty italy is bad for the same reasons but people will approach different modes as if they the same and say “italy is shit” when its banned in almost every single 1v1 event.

Seriously people it takes .5 seconds to type " X civ is good/bad in Y mode because…" and would help conversations not be so circular

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I think if people are talking about treaty or team balance they will generally say so, otherwise the default is usually supremacy 1v1

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ok, that makes more sense, thanks for clarifying.


If he is spoken of as a competitive player, I can understand his complaint, but it seems to me that he is trying to impose his opinion on the rest of the players.


It doesn’t seem logical to me, what prevents him from taking full control of the map and its resources? ?Why not counter that strategy with a higher boom thanks to natural resources?.


Yes, but Italy never seemed like a strong civilization to me, just a good defensive civilization and useful for making an FI.


But if the Lombards consume a large amount of resources, they don’t spawn out of nothing. You have to invest, I at least collect natural resources to feed them, the only way I can think of in which an Italian player could do that, would be abusing the city cards, but you are losing shipments and there is no guarantee that they turn out to be profitable.


Ok, if this is really happening (I don’t know how), then it’s a serious problem, maybe some of the Lombard invention cards could be removed, but the things the other user was asking for are unreasonable.


Do you agree with the stun mechanic? I would remove it, I consider it an abuse, regarding the speed of the unit, it never seemed like a problem to me and I don’t understand why it should be.


Because I don’t like civilizations to feel excessively strong or weak, the idea is to win in similar conditions, that’s why, in addition, many competitive players tend to have biases when it comes to “balancing” civilizations.

Added to the above, some civilizations are better defensively and others are better at rushing, but if we only listen to competitive players, all civilizations would end up being the same, but with a different Skin.


Sure, because competitive gamers are clearly the majority of gamers, represent the interests of the majority, and have never ruined a civilization by “balancing” it.

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top player on the ladder essentially exclusively plays italy and has an insane win % with it, simple as that. Its a fairly mediocre civ outside of 1v1 sup balance, which points to a design issue more than a direcy balance issue, if that makes any sense

Sure, because competitive gamers are clearly the majority of gamers, represent the interests of the majority, and have never ruined a civilization by “balancing” it.

i mean, what interests/stakes are there for you in competitive multiplayer balance, if you yourself don’t play competitive multiplayer? how can you “ruin” a civ for casual/single player by balancing it for competitive multiplayer? why does it matter at all?

like what do you have to gain by having Italy be so strong, lol? You don’t even care about winning , right?

The fun thing about a game is the challenge of defeating both the AI and the campaigns, but I imagine that you already know that, regarding why I care, easy, because the balance of the competitive directly affects everyone and not just you, I wouldn’t care much about multiplayer balance if it didn’t affect me when I play.


The changes in the Incas screwed me up in more than one game, just because competitive players were annoyed by some mechanics, for example the ability to shelter units and the revolution of Tupac Amaru II

I still don’t get it. Multiplayer balance matters because in a multiplayer match, there are two humans who are competing and the idea is to make the game asymmetrical but balanced to the extent that the outcome of the match will be determined by which player was more skilled and prepared, not by any differences in the civ they are playing. In single player… it’s just you and the computer. There is no concern whether to make something fair or balanced, there’s just the difficulty level. The civs could all be completely changed and messed around with and it wouldn’t really matter because “balance” literally doesn’t exist. If not being able to garrison units messed you up during a campaign, literally just turn the difficultly level down until you can manage lol

I can only agree with all speakers before. Especially the last comment from Squamiger explains it perfectly. Its really idk what to say that there are players who deny that Multiplayer matters the most balance wise…

Also the Head title is pretty funny because the balance is dominated from like 5-6 Civilizations which can do whatever they want because they are unbalanced

what is this for a thread lol

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Units are less prone to artillery when moving fast, unless they are gatling guns.

I have seen that heavy cannons sometimes do not fire when ordered or instead of firing or getting a little closer, they mount, instead of remaining dismounted.

A FI against Japan, Sweden, Incas and Italians rarely works.

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Don’t worry, it doesn’t matter anymore, this conversation has gone on too long and I don’t think we’ll agree, I hope you have a good day and good luck with your requests.


It’s never happened to me, but it sounds great, do you know any videos to watch?


Yes, sorry, I was wrong, the counter in theory is Economic Boom and map control.


:slightly_frowning_face:

I’m not 100/100% sure, but it’s my feeling.

you don’t boom fast enough by the time italy gets out guard skirms that can harrass your vils on the map. italy gets to age 4 by 10-11 mins say and immediatly has a batch of skirms out 35 secs later and they immediately start going around attacking your vils.

Now you can have units or buldings around to defend but a) that slows down your boom b) you can defend but you can’t punish them cause they have 5 speed and can just run away back to their turtle and they have guard stats (which you don’t have since you don’t get it for free) so even if you catch them you may not win cost effectively.

so the italian player is constantly able to dictate the gameplay while you have to hold on to try and outboom and defend a larger area. it flips the logic of map control on its head. on lower levels this may not matter since people can’t raid but at higher levels they will just raid the entire map.

you may have more res but the italian is in control

you are basically describing out crates works , you are trading shipments for res that are not profit since you are not getting anything extra but crates are a key dynamic in 1v1 play since it doesn’t matter if you are profitting you just need what you need to win now.

now imagine if you can have crates that can be collected without the threat of raids, while also generating xp along the way so that you can send more crates, all the while you are also getting xp from the towers you build and the basillica which also provides you with defenses and path blocking

the lombards are a problem but the real problem that is harder to fix is the skirm, being able to pump out guard skirms that can raid safely the moment you get to industrial is just not balanced, you effectively save 1.2k res and the research time so gain so much tempo while the opponent will have to spend res on atleast vet and guard upgrades (so atleast 1.6k res to 2.4k res) to be able to fight your damn skirms.

even then they can run back to their base where towers have bonus against cav and you might also run into the papal guards they get from age up that is also potentially doubled from the advanced politcian card, all guard level.

the same reaso is why the otto mosque fi is also getting too strong since you basically get a bunch of guard level units pumped out in short succession, but atleast there otto have less of a followup and can’t raid with impunity

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