# \[Balance\] Mangudai: damage regression against the spearman **URL:** \ **Category:** II - Report a Bug\ **Created:** [November 15, 2024, 11:00am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/balance-mangudai-damage-regression-against-the-spearman/266168 "2024-11-15T11:00:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![KHANATTILA](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/khanattila/32/30722_2.png) [@KHANATTILA](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/KHANATTILA)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2024, 11:00am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/balance-mangudai-damage-regression-against-the-spearman/266168/1 "2024-11-15T11:00:54Z")
### ▶ GAME INFORMATION - **GAME BUILD #:** [Dynasties of India](https://ageofempires.fandom.com/wiki/Age_of_Empires_II:_Definitive_Edition_-_Dynasties_of_India), update [https://ageofempires.fandom.com/wiki/Update\_73855](https://ageofempires.fandom.com/wiki/Update_73855) - **GAME PLATFORM:** Steam, but it is irrelevant - **OPERATING SYSTEM:** Windows 11, but it is irrelevant ### ▶ ISSUE EXPERIENCED The Mangudai do -2 expected damage against the spearman: - **Elite Mangudai** : +8 base damage +4 blacksmith +1 bonus damage +2 Parthian Tactics -4 armour → 11 damage per shot - **Heavy Cavalry Archer** : +7 base damage +4 blacksmith +4 bonus damage +2 Parthian Tactics -4 armour → 13 damage per shot ### ▶ METHODOLOGY Editor for the bug report test. ### ▶ FREQUENCY OF ISSUE - **100%** of the time / matches I play (ALWAYS) ### ▶ EXPECTED RESULT Same damage as Heavy Cavalry Archer. ### ▶ IMAGE ![Elite Mangudai](https://forums.ageofempires.com/uploads/default/original/3X/2/a/2a18c84669363f69b0f056c84b75762774032593.jpeg) ![Heavy CA](https://forums.ageofempires.com/uploads/default/original/3X/a/7/a7de41080fed2c4762fd4d94a984dc13836a9722.jpeg) ### ▶ EXPLANATION Update 73855: - Parthian Tactics now give the same anti-spearman bonus increase (+2) to Cavalry Archers as to other mounted archer units. - Heavy Cavalry Archer anti-spearman attack increased from 2 to 4. **But you forgot to increase Elite Mangudai bonus damage from 1 to 3**. ### ▶ OTHER REMARKS > [@\[Balance\] Condottieri: analysis, problems found and suggestions](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/balance-condottieri-analysis-problems-found-and-suggestions/265703): > > arrow_forward PREAMBLE I know this will be a fairly atic bug report, and I ask for patience from the moderator who will have to read it. But I have spent enough time collecting data that I think I am able to clearly indicate the balancing problem and how to fix it. arrow_forward GAME INFORMATION GAME BUILD #: in particularly the release of Dynasties of India onwards GAME PLATFORM: Steam, but it is irrelevant OPERATING SYSTEM: Windows 11, but it is irrelevant arrow_forward ISSUE EXPERIEN… ---
**Author:** ![Harooooo1](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/harooooo1/32/137793_2.png) [@Harooooo1](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Harooooo1)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2025, 8:30am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/balance-mangudai-damage-regression-against-the-spearman/266168/2 "2025-05-15T08:30:42Z")
But it is not regression. The goal was just to shift parthian tactics power into the main HCA unit. they didnt do any change for Mangudai, nerf or buff. They stayed same. ---
**Author:** ![KHANATTILA](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/khanattila/32/30722_2.png) [@KHANATTILA](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/KHANATTILA)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2025, 9:21am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/balance-mangudai-damage-regression-against-the-spearman/266168/3 "2025-05-15T09:21:46Z")
They did. They effectively removed 2 bonus damage from Full Upgraded Mangudai against the spearman-line. I checked the old patches. Full Upgraded Mangudai and Full Upgraded CA did exactly the same damage to spearman-line, this has been true for about 20 years. The CA had +2 vs.spearman-line and always +2 once Heavy CA. Mangudai having more base attack than CA, had +1 vs. spearman-line instead. Elite Mangudai obviously always +1. The result was that Mangudai and CA did exactly the same damage vs. spearman-line. But having nerfed Parthian Tactics to +2 (from +4), they incresead the +2 to +4 for the Heavy Cav Archers. But in the process, they did not raise the Elite Mangudai’s bonus from +1 to +3 to compensate. ---
**Author:** ![Harooooo1](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/harooooo1/32/137793_2.png) [@Harooooo1](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Harooooo1)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2025, 9:41am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/balance-mangudai-damage-regression-against-the-spearman/266168/4 "2025-05-15T09:41:27Z")
But in the process they never lowered the amount that Mangudai gets from Parthian Tactics. Mangudai always had the same amount from Parthian tactics that it has now. So what is the problem??? ---
**Author:** ![KHANATTILA](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/khanattila/32/30722_2.png) [@KHANATTILA](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/KHANATTILA)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2025, 9:55am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/balance-mangudai-damage-regression-against-the-spearman/266168/5 "2025-05-15T09:55:52Z")
> [@Harooooo1](#): > > Mangudai always had the same amount from Parthian tactics that it has now. Perhaps I have always misunderstood, in which case it is an old mistake. However, it doesn’t make much sense that Mangudai and CA cause the same amount of damage at the sperman-line, yet Elite Mangudai cause less damage than Heavy Cav Archers once they are full upgraded. ---
**Author:** ![Harooooo1](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/harooooo1/32/137793_2.png) [@Harooooo1](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Harooooo1)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2025, 8:59am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/balance-mangudai-damage-regression-against-the-spearman/266168/6 "2025-05-16T08:59:57Z")
imo It is good that there are some differences between the units, and that the mangudai is not strictly superior to the cav archer ---
**Author:** ![KHANATTILA](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/khanattila/32/30722_2.png) [@KHANATTILA](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/KHANATTILA)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2025, 10:09am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/balance-mangudai-damage-regression-against-the-spearman/266168/7 "2025-05-16T10:09:37Z")
> [@Harooooo1](#): > > imo It is good that there are some differences between the units This is fair, but it is not always how the devs made the UUs. Especially the archers vs sperman. Arbalest → 6 pierce attack +3 Sperman → Up to 9 dmg per shot. Elite Longbowman → 7 pierce attack +2 Sperman → Up to 9 dmg per shot. Elite Plumed Archer → 5 pierce attack +2 Sperman +2 Infantry → Up to 9 dmg per shot. Elite Rattan Archer → 7 pierce attack +2 Sperman → Up to 9 dmg per shot. Elite Mangudai → 8 pierce attack +1 Sparman → Up to 9 dmg per shot [+Parthian Tactics]. The calculations for Chu Ko Nu and Composite Bowman are a bit more complicated but I hope it is clear. I find the Heavy CA strange. ---
**Author:** ![TriRem](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/trirem/32/27520_2.png) [@TriRem](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/TriRem)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2025, 10:18am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/balance-mangudai-damage-regression-against-the-spearman/266168/8 "2025-05-16T10:18:56Z")
Mangudais, like all Cavalry Archer Unique Units, have always received just +2 vs Spearman from Parthian Tactics. Cavalry Archers used to receive +4, but this has been reduced to +2 to be consistent with other units, and Heavy Cavalry Archers received 2 additional base bonus vs Spearmen. In short, Fully Upgraded Mangudais have always dealt 11 damage to Spearmen and Cavalry Archer 13, nothing changed.