# Balance sugestions for May patch **URL:** \ **Category:** II - Discussion\ **Created:** [May 9, 2020, 6:44pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/balance-sugestions-for-may-patch/81845 "2020-05-09T18:44:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![MatCauthon3](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/matcauthon3/32/29474_2.png) [@MatCauthon3](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/MatCauthon3)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2020, 6:47am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/balance-sugestions-for-may-patch/81845/174 "2020-05-19T06:47:16Z")
> [@WhiteMagick4](#): > > - Lower cost to Cataphract Elite and Logistica Upgrades. > - Add the effect of the now obsolete Persian Castle Age UT Boiling Oil as an additional bonus for the Byzantine UT Greek Fire. It fits both the tech and the defensive nature of the civ. if they get these changes they would absolutely need to be monitored closely, they have a 52% winrate as is and they field cheap armies, these could push them over the edge even harder then the +2 armor does for Teutons currently. ---
**Author:** ![WhiteMagick4](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/whitemagick4/32/29597_2.png) [@WhiteMagick4](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/WhiteMagick4)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2020, 6:50am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/balance-sugestions-for-may-patch/81845/175 "2020-05-19T06:50:27Z")
Boiling oil was barely researched as I understand it so it’s not a major change. For the reduced cost, I would not suggest anything drastic. Like -100f and -100g for each tech. **But if they Byzantines remain as they are, I’m fine with them.** ---
**Author:** ![MatCauthon3](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/matcauthon3/32/29474_2.png) [@MatCauthon3](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/MatCauthon3)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2020, 6:52am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/balance-sugestions-for-may-patch/81845/176 "2020-05-19T06:52:10Z")
> [@WhiteMagick4](#): > > Boiling oil was barely researched as I understand it so it’s not a major change. i’m far more concerned about cheaper E Cataphract and Logistica. you might be fine with them only being 200 food and 200 gold cheaper, but we got others around here suggesting halving the Elite Cataphract upgrade cost… ---
**Author:** ![WhiteMagick4](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/whitemagick4/32/29597_2.png) [@WhiteMagick4](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/WhiteMagick4)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2020, 6:53am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/balance-sugestions-for-may-patch/81845/177 "2020-05-19T06:53:49Z")
Halving the cost is not realistic of course. As I said, some civs need some small tweaks. Not massive redesign. Then the game will be balanced with all civs within the 47.5-52.5% win rate bracket. ---
**Author:** ![MatCauthon3](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/matcauthon3/32/29474_2.png) [@MatCauthon3](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/MatCauthon3)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2020, 6:54am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/balance-sugestions-for-may-patch/81845/178 "2020-05-19T06:54:58Z")
> [@WhiteMagick4](#): > > As I said, some civs need some small tweaks. Not massive redesign. Then the game will be balanced with all civs within the 47.5-52.5% win rate bracket this i agree with. i think byzantines are fine as is, ofcourse they need more playtime for more accurate numbers, but that is true of about half the civs in this game. ---
**Author:** ![WhiteMagick4](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/whitemagick4/32/29597_2.png) [@WhiteMagick4](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/WhiteMagick4)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2020, 6:57am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/balance-sugestions-for-may-patch/81845/179 "2020-05-19T06:57:58Z")
Indeed we are at a point now that many civs are not played enough by pro players who tunnel vision themselves to finding the slightly overpowered strat among a handful of civs. Also, often they do not seem to remember or know all the civ bonuses. This opens the window for new players to rise in the rankings by utilizing little unknown strats. Personally, I believe that after one or two patches, the balance changes need to stop and players need to start testing all the civs and find new strats. In a recent game of Hera vs Daut, Vikings vs Portuguese, even the caster, T90 was prejudiced against the Portuguese, but Daut showed that they are excellent on water maps by utilizing their gold discount, feitorias, and caravels. ---
**Author:** ![MatCauthon3](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/matcauthon3/32/29474_2.png) [@MatCauthon3](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/MatCauthon3)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2020, 6:58am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/balance-sugestions-for-may-patch/81845/180 "2020-05-19T06:58:57Z")
> [@WhiteMagick4](#): > > Personally, I believe that after one or two patches, the balance changes need to stop and players need to start testing all the civs and find new strats. i believe we need to go longer then one month between patches. i’ve felt this for a long time. ---
**Author:** ![Bzhydack](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/bzhydack/32/50401_2.png) [@Bzhydack](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Bzhydack)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2020, 7:50am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/balance-sugestions-for-may-patch/81845/181 "2020-05-19T07:50:03Z")
Really enough is -400F maybe -500F on Elite Upgrade. Logistica is insanly strong so should stay expensive, maybe -100G only. I think this is interesting. We can see how cheap Keshiks and Leitis are. ---
**Author:** ![Parthnan](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/parthnan/32/55505_2.png) [@Parthnan](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Parthnan)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2020, 8:05am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/balance-sugestions-for-may-patch/81845/182 "2020-05-19T08:05:23Z")
> I think this is interesting. We can see how cheap Keshiks and Leitis are. This. Exactly what I pointed out in the other threads _ **days ago:** _ [Are there any downsides to lowering the costs of the unused(in ranked) War Elephants, Shotel Warriors, Condottiero, Teutonic Knights, Turtle Ships, Steppe Lancers and Siege Towers?](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/are-there-any-downsides-to-lowering-the-costs-of-the-unused-in-ranked-war-elephants-shotel-warriors-condottiero-teutonic-knights-turtle-ships-steppe-lancers-and-siege-towers/82659/34) **For how long can we keep imbalances just to gather _slightly_ more accurate winrate data, only to please those who still believe that civ winrate data is the crux in deciding balance changes?** **Even though we have already disproved that notion in this thread:** [[Helping weak civs] some minor ideas for improvements](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/helping-weak-civs-some-minor-ideas-for-improvements/82001/274) P.S. It is a long read, sorry You can block me if you want, but the truth remins that balance is subjective and it should be done on the _collective feelings of topmost PRO players and PRO casters_. ---
**Author:** ![CactusSteak2171](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/cactussteak2171/32/29684_2.png) [@CactusSteak2171](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/CactusSteak2171)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2020, 11:48am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/balance-sugestions-for-may-patch/81845/183 "2020-05-19T11:48:33Z")
> [@Bzhydack](#): > > I think this is interesting What I see being interesting is how bad the cata perform vs archers. Jus watch this guy’s vid on the teutonic knight, it performs better than catas ivs longbows! Of course in an actual game you can’t hit and run catas like you can for TK but still, with all these upgrade costs… Oh and something I don’t see being brought up much: catas need both elite and logistica for being good. Without logistica, it takes more damage from halbs, has less infantry damage and without the trample they can barely trade with briton/vietnamese cavalier, while without elite it’s just too weak. > [@Parthnan](#): > > it should be done on the _collective feelings of topmost PRO players and PRO casters_ All due respects, but the pros wouldn’t have agreed that much with your “let’s remove 5 gold” policy either. They would have pointed out there was a reason condos were nerfed to have less attack and no base pierce armour, and that it’s normal an infantry UU isn’t seen every game because it’s on an archer and siege civ and thus the gold goes on this first. They did find an use to the normal SL, they can even use war eles and so on. ---
**Author:** ![Parthnan](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/parthnan/32/55505_2.png) [@Parthnan](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Parthnan)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2020, 11:52am UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/balance-sugestions-for-may-patch/81845/184 "2020-05-19T11:52:23Z")
> [@CactusSteak2171](#): > > but the pros wouldn’t have agreed that much with your “let’s remove 5 gold” policy OK im fine if they would not have agreed with my specific suggestions, I dont take it that hard. I continue to brainstorm more potential solutions wherever necessary. But I do think the **UU Tierlist Videos** from both Viper and Hera do say a lot about _just how much_ work is to be done in balancing some of these. ---
**Author:** ![CactusSteak2171](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/cactussteak2171/32/29684_2.png) [@CactusSteak2171](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/CactusSteak2171)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2020, 12:46pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/balance-sugestions-for-may-patch/81845/185 "2020-05-19T12:46:19Z")
> [@Parthnan](#): > > the **UU Tierlist Videos** In both lists most units are A/B tiers, and even with a lot of S tiers stuff for Viper. And alas, they have their own bias ([here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2jhSq3X0uU&t=1755s), Hera getting salty over his chu ko nu not rekting boyars while his chu ko nu are actually busy rekting boyars) ---
**Author:** ![Parthnan](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/parthnan/32/55505_2.png) [@Parthnan](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Parthnan)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2020, 12:48pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/balance-sugestions-for-may-patch/81845/186 "2020-05-19T12:48:21Z")
> [@CactusSteak2171](#): > > ([here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2jhSq3X0uU&t=1755s), Hera getting salty over his chu ko nu not rekting boyars while his chu ko nu are actually busy rekting boyars) But Hera did rank Chu ko nus very well in the UU Tierlist video (just like TheViper), so please, just forgive him for being in the heat of the moment there. He is a pro player, so his insights into units are the best when he is serious, but he is a human after all, so he can say stuff like that sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![CactusSteak2171](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/cactussteak2171/32/29684_2.png) [@CactusSteak2171](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/CactusSteak2171)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2020, 12:57pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/balance-sugestions-for-may-patch/81845/187 "2020-05-19T12:57:48Z")
> [@Parthnan](#): > > just forgive him for being in the heat of the moment there. I will admit I needed an excuse to post it 11 After all it would be unfair if I was the only one to get a good laugh ---
**Author:** ![Bzhydack](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/bzhydack/32/50401_2.png) [@Bzhydack](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Bzhydack)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2020, 1:41pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/balance-sugestions-for-may-patch/81845/188 "2020-05-24T13:41:35Z")
> [@POOLS about BALANCE in the next patches](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/pools-about-balance-in-the-next-patches/83257/1): > > I’m just curios to see what is the general thoughts about the incoming patches regarding the balance changes, so here there are some pools, to have a more clearer picture. Mainly the pool regard the general status of the civ and with a small focus on UU. Each poll allow you to choose between 1 and 3 option, so choose carefully. You don’t have to use all 3 possibilities. There are 9 pools, I know it’s a bit long, but try to answer to all of them. 1 - What will be in your opinion the civs that … ---
**Author:** ![Lonezwiebel](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/lonezwiebel/32/29843_2.png) [@Lonezwiebel](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Lonezwiebel)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2020, 2:19pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/balance-sugestions-for-may-patch/81845/189 "2020-05-24T14:19:53Z")
My suggestion: Indian: elephant archer +10% speed elephant archer -20G elephant warrior + elite elephant warrior Burmese: Arambai, elite Arambai +20% accuracy Saracene: Mameluke -20G Lithuanier: Leitis +10G ---
**Author:** ![Parthnan](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/parthnan/32/55505_2.png) [@Parthnan](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Parthnan)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2020, 2:28pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/balance-sugestions-for-may-patch/81845/190 "2020-05-24T14:28:20Z")
> [@Lonezwiebel](#): > > elephant archer -20G 110F 60G for EAs? I’m still not using that even if I were held at gunpoint 🤣 ---
**Author:** ![MatCauthon3](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/matcauthon3/32/29474_2.png) [@MatCauthon3](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/MatCauthon3)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2020, 2:28pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/balance-sugestions-for-may-patch/81845/191 "2020-05-24T14:28:44Z")
> [@Lonezwiebel](#): > > elephant archer +10% speed > elephant archer -20G > elephant warrior + > elite elephant warrior What are they going to lose for getting these massive buffs? > [@Lonezwiebel](#): > > Leitis +10G Winning only 48% of games and gets nerf. Nice. Welcome to the bottom of the barrel again lithuanians. ---
**Author:** ![Parthnan](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/parthnan/32/55505_2.png) [@Parthnan](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Parthnan)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2020, 2:31pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/balance-sugestions-for-may-patch/81845/192 "2020-05-24T14:31:22Z")
> [@MatCauthon3](#): > > Winning only 48% of games and gets nerf. Nice. Welcome to the bottom of the barrel again lithuanians. I will also oppose a Leitis nerf here, as I really want most civs to **make good use of their UU** Meanwhile, Elephant Archers: ![42kgle](https://static.ageofempires.com/aoe-forums/original/3X/3/0/30b5cdee09ea00ca84fe17e81e5117855ab8a359.jpeg) #NuclearReactorElephantosForIndians ---
**Author:** ![Szebo210](https://forums.ageofempires.com/user_avatar/forums.ageofempires.com/szebo210/32/45427_2.png) [@Szebo210](https://forums.ageofempires.com/u/Szebo210)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2020, 5:45pm UTC](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/balance-sugestions-for-may-patch/81845/193 "2020-05-24T17:45:26Z")
> [@Lonezwiebel](#): > > Lithuanier: > Leitis +10G > [@MatCauthon3](#): > > Winning only 48% of games and gets nerf. Nice. Welcome to the bottom of the barrel again lithuanians. No way Leitis should be left unchanged, +10 gold is a reasonable cost increase. By the way unless there are nearly countless matches that had have been played, you cannot trust statistics, but I’ve already told yout this a tousand times. If you really want to rely on statistics, it is much safer to rely on the all elo data instead of the 1650+ data. The winrate inaccuracy will decrease with the number of matches being played. Currently it is even possible that there is a 10% inaccuracy at 1650+ winrates (so for example lith winrate is actually 52,8% instead of 48%). And btw liths are a top 10 civ at all elo stats so even if we rely on statistics, which we in fact shouldn’t, then lithuanians are strong. [Previous page](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/balance-sugestions-for-may-patch/81845.md?page=8) [Next page](https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/balance-sugestions-for-may-patch/81845.md?page=10)