Balance Suggestion - Obuch

Needless to say, Poles are consistently OP, or shall I say overly convinient during all game long.
*Early Game- just like any new civ, they systematically have an eco bonus, two of them (Bohemians, Burgundians…) , just a mandatory fashion of civ design these days, it has to have an eco bonus, even if it’s an irrelevant one (Sicilians). I bet it could be more inspiring than this.

*Mid Game- A scarry build up into a massive Knights play, that cost less than Steppe Lancers. And an OP Unique Unit alternative on top of a Bracer Arbalester cause why not.

*Late Game- The best Hussar in the game, that can even keep up with gold units consider his fixed Trample Damage.

Design for this civ seems to be based on gimmicks rather than a beautiful minimalistic concept. Hey Villagers can regen HP at an irrelevant rate. I offer a ticket out of this gimmicky design, first we should treat Obuch with some adjustments.

Currently Obuch is a generic infantry unit with an absurd cost and ridiculous stats. The Armor reduction mechanism can be just converted to +2/+4 damage or so, rather than have a meaningful place in the game. Unless you approach it differently.

My suggestion:

Regular Obuch is untouched, remains with the same 8 damage
Elite Obuch damage reduction from 10 to 8.
Elite Obuch attack rate gets improved by 20%.

I’d even lower the attack damage to 7 or lower their movement speed by 5%, the unit is still OP.

Now they’d actually use their bonus, rely on it, rather than having it as a side-kick, having more attack speed increase the efficiency of the armor reduction. Plus, when armor is low, any damage applies become impactful, Obuch + Skirms is awesome, therefore we shouldnt be afraid to lower Obuch base damage even more, considering its funny price.

Obviously the easiest way to nerf this unit would be increasing the gold cost and lowering the hit point, but that’s just throwing them into the very plain category of infantry units that just trade good with any other unit generically.

What’re your thoughts of this change, let me know :slight_smile:


Poles are fine and Obuch design is to be goodat melee


2p armor and almost 100hp makes them generically good against every ranged unit. (Besides CA of course, that can even kill Sicilian UU)

Then just remove 1 PA like what was done with Leitis and see them die to archers

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That’s the easy part, increasing gold cost to 25 and 1p armor like all generic infantry units, great. Berserk #2.

2p for an infantry is a great thing in terms of diversity. We shouldnt ruin it.

We wanted a viable infantry UU and now is OP because is viable …
And lmao poles just die to cav archer civs.
Obuch could see some change yes but if you want an OP UU see the Chu Ko Nu.

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Chu Ko Nu dies to Onager, plus it relies on mass and not so easy to mass, most Chinese players just go Arbalester. That’s how OP Chu Ko Nu are. Cant Remember the last time I’ve seen Poles going for Champions instead.

Chinese problem is the uncontrolable Dark Age bonus, assuming you have sheeps to gather from. Retroactive eco lead is imposible to govern as a designer.

Obuch is OP from the wrong reasons, Obuch needs Identity, that’s what Im saying, not a nerf but a change that’d make him an Obuch and not a Berserk.

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Not all civs can field easily onagers, plus are expensive and slow.
40w 35g and 13 TT to the archer that shred rams, skirms and even cavalry… What a balanced unit.

Chukonu is basically a cheap Hand Can that’s affected by Ballistics.
Yes, it is on the stronger side when it comes to Unique Units, however dealing with this unit should be the last thing we do regarding Chinese, since all the pro players just ignore it and go Arbs / Cavalier. It’s 1st civ regardless of its UU.

Besides that, Spanish is a good example of a solid civ design, where having an extra strong UU is totally balanced because of the overall civ design, lacking both eco bonus and Xbows.

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I don’t think Poles are OP, but I do think that 2 pierce armor feels weird for a unit that looks as unarmored as the Obuch. At the same time, their cavalry is missing the final armor upgrade, which also feels weird - their Cavalier die faster to Arbalesters than their Obuch.


Because massing them since castle age is way easier, also the cheaper techs bonus make that easy to use.
Leitis is barely an unit that’s favored over Knights most of the time yet was nerfed losing 1 PA, guess why

I think that it would be more efficient to instead lowering its rate of fire. This way you don’t just reduce the damage inflicted by the obuch, but you also slow the armor-damage effect, making the obich+archer combo less effective.

Increasing the cost would also be a good idea.

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AoE II Forum - Poles and Bohemians are OP, Valve please nerf !!1
AoE II Steam Forums - Poles and Bohemians bad, Valve please fix 1!1
People who actually play the game - Poles and Bohemians are fine.


so what?? serjants can build the litle castles

so hes not OP but u hate hsi design.
i like obuchs style

Hey that reminds me of the leits

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i mean you were even too lazy to remove the valve name from the meme

there is a difference between OP and negative player experience… burg and sicilians were known as underperforming but were still nerfed due to the negative player feedback

i find this interesting… i made some posts on reddit about the obuch, and it is actually the castle age one that highly over performs for the cost. it needs the most tweaking of the 2 variants if anything

i also think this is highly counter intuitive… he has a giant two handed weapon that makes a heck of a noise, but you actually want him to attack faster than almost all melee units? :confused: if anything he should be attacking slower due to both the aesthetics and the impact of the debuff

lowering speed exponentially reduces viability of the unit… currently it is the main thing that is holding it back (i mean look at the TK)

if anything i would reduce their hp and/or PA. or a slight increase in cost. but nothing too drastic, as the civ does not have an amazing win rate, and will likely get an eco nerf anyway

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Go the easy route. - 5 HP (both elite and non elite) and +5 gold cost. If its still op. Lower attack by - 1

Obuch skirms is in my opinion the proof how ridiculous the unit is. Its supposedly a support unit but combined with its great stats its just broken.

It’s not a secret, that the Obuch is straight up better than most infantry UUs. They still dont seem generally overpowered though. So maybe instead of nerfing the Obuch, other infantry UUs should be buffed a bit to put them on par.

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We finally have a useful infantry unique unit and all everyone does is complain about it and call it OP?

Why not nerf knights, nerf crossbows, the actual units that are used in the game?

Leave infantry alone, all the other unit types are dominant enough. If anything, buff infantry UUs and militia line.

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