Balance suggestions for January, or February, or whenever it'll be

Hello guys, since it seems that everyone is listing thier balance changes instead of having a single big topic.

I thought that I should do the same to avoid just spamming a tons of potential changes on someone else’s topic, since I have a lot of them…

Ok, so this is the full list of potential balance changes (brace yourself, it’ll be a long list…) It goes from simple ideas that I think it’s worth at least considering one time, to some mandatory changes (I list what are mandatory ones in my opinion at the end).
So don’t take all of them with the same degree of “seriousness”. Not all of them are of course mine, some where suggested by others.

Before reading this, keep in mind a few things:

  • By any means I think that balance changes should take priority over fixing the games or game stability.
  • Those are just suggestions, the number and percentages of course may be tweaked around a bit.
  • Not all of this changes have to be implemented, some are just general suggestions, not all means to buff/nerf the civ, some may just want ot change an useless UT, and some may even be ignored if you want.
  • Some changes shouldn’t take as they are, some may be mixed between different proposals (even when I say “either that or…”), other suggestions instead may be discarded for a civ, and recycled for another one.

So having said that, let’s begin:


  • Maghrebi camels give 0.35 HP regen for camels (as much as berserkers with the UT), it stay at 0.25 for Cam.A.


  • Receive the second archer armor.
    Arambai stats changed to:
  • From 1PA to 0PA (1PA elite).
  • From 5 range to 4.


  • Receive free town patrol.
  • Receive partian tactics.
  • Greek Fire accuracy fixed.


  • CKN cost 45g instead of 35g.


  • Faster cavalry bonus changed to 5% in feudal.
  • They receive free husbandry upon hitting castle age.
  • Lose squires.
  • Cumans mercenaries now allows you allies to train elite kipchaks but paying for them, at the castles (similar to condos), though they cost 50g (instead of 35g, wood stay at 60) for the allies, to offset the fact that some civ, other than having bracer, may have other bonuses or UT that makes them stronger (and to emphasize the mercenaries theme).


  • Receive 100f/g in feudal, 200f/g in castle, 300f/g in imp.
  • Their TB now also give +1/2/3/4 LoS on all buildings for dark/feudal/castle/imp.


  • Castle age UT becomes bearded axe.
  • Imp UT becomes chivalry.
    Everyone is always asking for a frank nerf, I think that they are fine, but a balanced nerf could be the delay of chivalry until imp.

Another solution could could be:

  • Foragers work 20% (instead of 25%) so basically 1 free vill on berries for every 5 instead of 4. You can’t unfortunately drop it further because berries are already slow, and so it would become useless.


Early game buffed a bit:

  • Loom is automatically researched when you click for feudal age, but start with minus 50g.
    New bonus, hunting animals (boars, deers and equivalent) give +10% food (basically 34f more from a boar, 14f more from a deer). This could substitute the +15 carry capacity (or not, it requires testing).
    Late game goth nerfed a little:
  • Perfusion now costs 800w and 800g (from 400w and 600g).
  • Goths lose conscription, so from 153% faster working barracks, you would get 120% (it’s a nerf on all other military buildings too)


  • Atheism give tarkans the ability to generate gold (like keshiks but at half speed) when dealing damage to buildings (not including walls), the cost is accordingly adjusted.


  • TB changed in farms, mills, lumber and mining camps are built 50% faster, and those buildings research 50% faster the upgrades.
  • Kamayuks get +1 bonus damage vs EEW.


That’s tricky… in my opinion either:

  • Receive only the knight.
  • No extra PA for stable units.
  • Get back plate armor for cav.

… or:

  • Receive the BE (I don’t like it, but we are kinda of running out of ideas…)
  • Cav PA bonus stay the same.

In any case:

  • Shatagni increase proportionally the accuracy and the cost is reduced to 300f and 250g. (all HC UT should be cheaper, to incourage the use of the unit)
  • IC lose 2 bonus damage vs cav and the TT isn’t reduced by 2 seconds as it is now.
  • EA receive +1 base range in castle age and +1 range with the elite upgrade.



  • Receive one, or more, or all, of the following techs for free:
  • xbows
  • arbs
  • elite skirm.

… or:

  • Receive free TR (read below for tartars)


  • Foot archers get +1PA on foot archers (xbows/skirms/HC) from feudal for free.

… or:

  • Age up cost 20% less and it’s researched 20% faster.
  • Dock techs cost 33% less but docks also work 33% faster.
    For who say that it’s a buff for the faster working docks, a 33% discount instead of 50% it’s a big nerf in resources that +5% cheaper age up don’t compensate for.

In any case:

  • Condos get +1 bonus damage vs EEW


  • Samurai cost 15g instead 30g
  • Kmer:
  • BE are 20% faster, but lose husbandry
    this is a nerf on their late game hussars spam, which would be slower
  • BallistaE become an siege-CA hybrid (instead of siege-cavalry) so they become affected by partian tactics (not fletching/bodkin/bracer of course).
  • BallistaE are affected by Kmer speed bonus.


TB buffed to monasteries works 33% faster.


  • Get a new bonus that animals (both herdables and hunt) don’t rot.
    This is a bit more food, but more importantly it allows for a more relaxed dark age, since it punish you less if you put less vills into gathering food from them. It’s just a more noob-friendly bonus


  • Obsidian arrows give +2 bonus atk to archers against manganels.
    Everyone have this tech, I don’t think we will se it changed, but at least this way it would be more balanced, at least in my opinion.


  • Nomads instantly unlock the 200 pop (huns style) and it’s researched in 10 seconds.


  • Get back their +5% faster TC and docks in dark age.
    Trashbows cost 75w instead of 60w.


  • Arquebus get fixed and it now accounts for the different projectile speed and accuracy.
  • Arquebus cost reduced to 400f and 400g.


  • Foot archers get +1/2/3 atk bonus only vs walls (TB and CA bonus stay the same).
  • Mamelukes cost 15g less (from 85 to 70).
  • Madrasah changed in monks cost 66% less.


  • Ortodoxy buffed from +3/3 armor to +6/6 armor.



  • Faster building bonus buffed to 66% except for towers, BBT and castles that stays at 30% (wonders too that stays at 20%) and for the first TC in nomads.

… or:

  • Trash line upgrades don’t cost gold.
    so basically pike (90g), ES (130g), LC (50g), halb (600g) and hussars (600g). So basically 270g in castle age and 1200g in imp. If you are allied with viets, you also save 450g from IS.
    You would basically need only 150g to get bloodlines to tech into trash units, which suits the spanish because get all 3 lines FU.


Either one of those solutions:

  • Tartars get just 1 sheep for TC.
  • Tartars get only 2 sheep in feudal (not with every TC built).
  • Tartars get the 2 sheep from the dark age, and 2 sheep with every TC, but lose the bonus that gives them more food on sheeps (it could be recycled for another civ though…).
  • Tartars lose free Tumb Ring. (it may be given to a civ that needs an archer buff like Italians).


  • The +1PA for the scout line bonus is transformed into light cav and hussars have +1PA, that way their dark age and feudal age wouldn’t be buffed, and they would receive the +1PA automatically upon hitting castle age.


  • Paper money gives back 800 gold instead of 500 (the cost remains the same) so you have the advantage of at least 1f/w = 1g (not even saracens market have this value).
  • Chatras costs 350f and 350g but gives +100HP to BE.
  • Lose bloodlines but get hussar.

Here I’ll list the civs that in need a mandatory buff/nerf (you can guess which by looking at what I suggest for them).

Not in any particular order:

  • Burmese
  • Cumans
  • Goths
  • Indians
  • Italians
  • Spanish
  • Tartars
  • Turks

No, they have cheaper Camels don’t give them better regeneration.

Let’s don’t play with Arambai that much. You know accuracy…

Why Parthian Tactics? They hired merceneries, not created Cavalry Archers. Greek fire fixed? How? They have best Fast Fire Ships.

Mayans has +%15 resources last longer, if you make +%20 this is too strong.

Someone doesn’t know what is Samurai. They have a lot of bonus damage against unique units. They can play role of Champion and you are suggesting they cost fewer than Champion.

Magyars don’t need anything.

Nomads not that bad tech. Its cheap research it destroy every house you had built.

Never touch Mamelukes.

Like Saracens doubling effects doesn’t fix monk. Let’s don’t touch it. Still bonus damage counts even you have 100/100 armour (from scouts and eagles).

They don’t need that much nerf. Basically a cow instead of 2 sheep if you really want to nerf them.

11, Turks have nothing! You can’t do much thing with gold bonus when you don’t have full archers and knights in late-game. Camels aren’t strong.

Don’t think War Elephant=Battle Elephant. Battle elephants costs significantly less. So keep it whatever they are.

I tried to write most of them.

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They still lack bloodlines, so imo it is kinda useless. Greek fire should be just buffed imo.

This could be cool, as long as it is adjusted properly.

Hmm, I’m curious, why?

I’m in favor of the increase of the age up discount to 20% and decrease of the dock bonus. I still think that italians really lack something which makes them unique. I really do not like their unique techs at all.

I think I would change silk road as a civilization bonus or just remove it. Replace it with some tech which allows them to deal somehow with siege, something like infantry deals extra damage against siege or something like that. I say this because BBCs are just not enough against massed enemy siege, they only work well in small numbers.

I would rather have them have +1 PA tbh.

I think Ballista ele simply needs an higher damage output…maybe it should shoot very slowly, but deal much higher damage, so it could be different from the scorps.

That’s way too much, that’s more MA than a FU paladin.

Tatars need some serious redesign of their bonii imo, it’s just a mess of a civ…devs keep throwing random bonii at them until now they got too good. I think they should keep free thumb ring, but not free PT. I think the extra sheeps idea is not bad, but there should be some kind of requirement for that, like researching a free tech which does that or building some kind of specialized building which spawns sheeps…they just get too much stuff for free. I would also prefer if the hill bonus was changed to something else, it’s too game rules breaking imo.

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Wow, that is way to many changes. We just got a big balance change recently and the game looks quite balanced right now. Let’s let it play out a little bit until we have had one or two big tournaments an a lot of user data…

If you have to balance something the I would say:

Tatars -> change the sheep spawn bonus to 1 sheep per TC

Franks -> change the berry bonus from 25% to 20%.

Italiens -> some minor buff for landmaps

That’s all.


I agree. I personally hope that no balance changes are gonna be introduced with the new DLC (except maybe for 2-3 civs). No big tournament has been played on the new patch and we yet need to see how previous changes (and the new civs) play out.

I love drastic changelog like this, spices up the meta. I like the switch of Franks UT which will nerf the civ a bit. Also Madrasah rework to monks costing 66% less would be good.

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Why not just nerf the arambai?

This is beautiful. I’ve been looking at this for 5 hours even tho this only 2h old, you get the point


This civ is fine, it sounds like a huge buff.

The +15 carry capacity is fine, the problem is with the bonus damage against boar. Besides the obvious laming incentive, it’s mostly useless otherwise and only exists cuz ES didn’t realise boar luring would be a thing 11

Why nerf the whole Goth military? Why not just nerfing perfusion?

?? Incas have champions and slingers already, and why should it be only against the elite eagle warrior?

The deal is that Italian don’t deserve a compensation for a water nerf, just like Vikings wouldn’t either.

The point of the november speed nerf was to prevent Khmer battle eles from catching up to xbows without husbandry. With this change this becomes possible again.

I still don’t get why some people have thought of this as an option even tho it’s not what caused the problem.

I think they should remove it in dark age, but the whole point of the bonus being in feudal age is to help them against archer civs. If it’s in castle age only it becomes pointless because they could just go knights instead.

WOW that’s going over the top. Viet eles are good, too bad for the players if they can’t realise it.

Why is it so trendy to try and overbuff Viet ele why simultaneously ruining their knights and CA.

Most stuff I didn’t comment on sounds fine to me.


Oh man, this list is so long that sounds as a new game 11. Let me see:

I am not sure this is needed, but it is minor change, and I am not vs minor changes in general…

Arambai do not need any nerf, they have been nerfed a lot. So, at least, do not touch the range

Fine with this. PT for byzantine is not than useful imo.

I like this. The other cuman changes are not needed imo

Sounds fine

Here a larger nerf is needed

Not sure how to handle this… maybe your solution can work

Inca tb and hun ut are the less useful thing in the game. A change would be appreciated

This is the priority for Indians

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That used to train CA in the early days, when they where still the old Roman Empire.

As for Greek fire it mess with the accuracy, it should just be adjusted accordingly (like Indians HC). Having more range but then less hits reach you target is a bit useless.

But with PT they would have the bonus damage vs pikes, and a bit more armor.

I suggested +10% in fact, not +20%?

Nobody use samurai since supplies. Champs are simply the better option, this way at least samurai would be a bit different from champs.

Lol, it’s super bad. I agree that mongols don’t really need buffs, but nomads it’s the second worse tech.

Because they are the only infantry (with condos) that don’t get a bonus vs eagles. And eagles aren’t supposed to be good vs any infantry.

Changing SR wouldn’t do anything for them, their problem is way earlier on. You either buff their feudal or or the early castle age (with free xbow).

I did it.

Cumans are a bit weaker since the nerf on kipchaks, and now in castle age is fast as much as anyone that have husbandry, so it’s not a big advantage.

This way their bonus would basically be 5/15/15% in feudal/castle/imp.

Meh, the civ has one trick pony, it’s archers. Civs with better ecos will outshine them.

Also getting 100f/g in imp is pretty much ridiculous…

Still not a mandatory buff I agree.

Yeah that could work too.

It’s not much of compensation, it’s a rebalance, the 2 bonuses works in synergy, if you simply reduce one you broke them.

It more of just saving resources on an absolute value. If you age up sooner, you’ll have less resources (what you save only partially compensate), and if then the techs also cost more, you’ll be able to click them later.

So having them researched faster allows you to offset that.

Or you simply give them a pure land bonus adn you leave the 15/50%.

Now the bonus gives them 10% more speed, plus 10% of husbandry, so 20% total. If you give 20% to BE but you remove husbandry they remain the same, but you also nerf their late game hussars spam.

50HP on 270 isn’t a big deal… but I agree that it’s not mandatory…

They are the only CA with 5 base range instead of 4, but it’s most the armor that it’s a problem anyway…

No but it could be interesting, and it wouldn’t make them OP.

I don’t think so, now it’s the franks moment, nerf them a bit and let’s see if it’ll be blown away after a bit.

I think that at least a part of the high pick rate comes from a bias induced by pros on the community…

A big redesign is needed, on stables, IC, HC and EA.

Okay, fine. But still they have Heavy Cavalry Archers. Maybe they don’t have Bloodlines but with units in front of Cavalry Archers HP and Armour doesn’t important.

I said Mayans has +15% all resources last longer. Bad version doesn’t make sense, if you increase it to +20%, it will be too strong.

Here it is interesting. They are the worst atm, and they do need something, but let me see.

I do not like this. It does not help in feudal, where they suck badly

This is the best proposal for them. A straight archer buff. Another idea is the archer speed boost.

This can work. Instead of boosting just archers, it helps the whole eco. An alternative eco bonus is military buildings cost -50w.

Another bonus coming to my mind is that all the Italian units attack 10% faster. You can exclude navy if the dock discount remain untouched. Otherwise I would nerf the dock discount to 40%.

Basically a general military bonus, which makes their units slightly stronger. Clearly infantry would still loose vs Burmese, japanese or goth infantry, cavalry would still loose vs teuton, Lithuanian, malian, bulgarian, berber cavalry, archers would still loose vs Britons, Ethiopians, Mayans, Vietnamese…

But at least in a generic fight (say vs china) Italians would be slightly ahead in military strength but clearly behind in eco. Atm Italians miss both eco and military bonuses since the age up discount is negligible on land…

Anyway that another option making their open tech tree to shine. Between the one you proposes, +1PA is the best one imo

I missed this and this is NOT fine. Even if it was not a TB and there was no boosting shenanigans with relics, it would be a very powerful bonus just because it’s the only way to boost monastery working rate in the whole game. And since well, it is a TB and there are boosting shenanigans, it’s even more reasons not to buff it.

Heck it’s even in the AoK manual, why didn’t ES do this themselves : /

And maybe it has to do with the fact both civs have champions+an anti infantry archer, and those two units have different roles than just being fancy champion substitutes.

But why give them an archer armour upgrade?

I wish people would use this as an opportunity to use normal CA as Cuman more instead of whining.

Well it’s still a free powerspike, free 150 f and free stable time.

Shotels? Full siege workshop+UT?

And yet they are very popular despite this.

Well yes but actually no since they don’t need 150f and stable time anymore to catch up xbows. And their hussar spam is kinda overrated nowadays, people should stop believing they are Hera.

That’s 19% on normal BEs. Almost as much as the Frank bonus.

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They have 1(2 for Elite) base pierce right now, he nerfed the pierce even more while buffing their skirmishers

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Oh I ment for the civ in general. Why wouldn’t a civ be able to work without the second archer armour, while it’s possible without the equivalent cav or infantry armour.

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I feel like 4 range and non existent Armor would be an overnerf

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I would rather propose to reuse the Leitis mechanic but to give “anti arambai” armour to buildings. This way they get to keep an unit that hit and runs every melee unit, but it isn’t their best siege weapon anymore. Making manipur cavalry not work for arambai while buffing it for their eles to make up for all the ele nerfs could be cool too.

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I like most of the OP’s suggestions.

khmer suggestions though are oberbuffing the civ. only viable if they return to standard farms (maybe with a small bonus there)

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This can work but it will not change the unit problem…

Do they need a further nerf?

That is fine but I feel it is difficult to implement

The two techs need some changes and these ideas work imo

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yes lets make goths even more 1 dimensional.

don’t think this is needed for them.

do ethiopians really need a buff?

don’t think this does anything for Indians.

do Khmer really need another nerf? they aren’t an S tier civ anymore.

Turks are now a mid tier civ and don’t need nerfs.

they lose accuracy at longer range.

mayans bonus is 15% to literally everything. this is 10% to one resource type and only hunt and herd.