Balance's suggestions for the next patch

It’s not completely impossible. Not saying that the devs are noobs, but the inventor of a game is not necessarily good at it. Example? Basketball. The inventor of the game has a losing record. (source: James Naismith - Wikipedia) So never say never. :rofl:

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All the devs are noobs, some of them are capable of making the game bugfree, but aoe2 devs aren’t.

Cough Cough FE private discord!!!
All Pros said that Burgundians failed to use the earlier eco techs due to that.
But let’s see how it works, yes it needs to be witched closely, but right now Burgundians winrates are balanced,
Be scared to that where the Malay BEs are just barely more expensive than Steppe Lancer-_-
Also all scared of Burgundians while Mayans, Vikings and Chinese remain OP for years.

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I’m really curious what you mean by this claim. I read the timer statement pretty frequently from you and are always a bit puzzled about it. From my understanding their feudal play is pretty good (not super strong) because they can afford more than other civs with their early eco techs.

Also I don’t understand the argument of weak post imp and weak trash. Burgundians have one of if not the best post imp play in 1v1. They get way better long term gold income, they get FU cheap and fast paladin lacking only bloodlines (I’d much rather have 160HP palading than 140HP cavalier, they have arguably the best affordable late game cav), they only lack ring archer armor and bloodlines, but those techs are not too important when your paladins have 7 pierce armor to counter archers and you can spam hussar even without bloodlines. Also their halbs lack no upgrade.

Their siege is not as bad as you describe from my understanding, because they make up most of their weakness with their super strong bbc.
So what exactly do you mean with your late game weakness and timer argument? Really curious about your thought process :slight_smile:

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they have a terrible late game. their feudal isn’t that good either because they have to invest extra resources into tech.

can they really? based on what? they spend more overall then other civs on tech, and don’t see a return on that investment until around castle age.

stats disagree.

1 gold per minute per farmer. with 50 farmers you get 50 gold. not that good.

and when they run out of gold what then?

their hussars will lose to other civs hussars. period. and malian light cavalry will wreck them.

their super strong bbc that lacks the extra range granted by siege engineers? they literally trade 5% extra attack for 1 range. that is their advantage. the rest of their siege? bad.

simple - their trash will lose to other civs trash - their eco is behind in feudal until they pay off all those techs. go look at the winrates at the highest level - burgundians fall off a cliff in the late game. even in overall elo it is heading downwards the later a game goes.
Burgundians - 1v1 Random Map | ALL - aoestats overall
https://aoestats.io/civ/Burgundians/RM_1v1/1650+ 1650

Burgs have bad trash and bad siege. That makes their very lategame quite bad in comparison.
Of course there are other civs which are even worse, but burgs lategame is not really strong.

Even their paladins fall of in comparison what most other civs have available in gold units.

Yes, they get extra gold from their farms, but I don’t think it’s enough to set this of.

Not really… missing siege engineers hurts a lot. They are good, but not super strong.
And it’s the only good thing they have really.

Ok, burgs are now an above average civ…

What’s the problem with that?

They have a really good eco with sub par cavalry with cheap upgrades, it is a Nice trade off.

Maybe they can tweak their bonus a little in the future, but they are not broken today

Then if they are bad in late game as you said, then why people crying about Fmilitia which is ONLY came in late game?

Is it though? They have better trash than franks for example and they don’t fall flat in late game too.

Where do they spend more when their bonus is a discount to eco techs? I don’t think the overall return is the strenght of this bonus. They save a lot and get an edge by researching those techs earlier than the opponent. That’s enough to be better than what your opponent can do right? The opponent also gets the pay back in castle age don’t they?

So? You could say the same about Franks, Britons, Japanese, Byzantines scout line. Fact is, they still use them and those 20HP don’t matter too much when you can spam hussar into the enemy eco.

Fair. But when are you realistically getting SE? With Burgundians you get the bonus for free (save those 500f 600w) and immediately. I think that’s fine.

Also you haven’t explained the timer argument yet :slight_smile:

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if you use flemish militia you are nuking your eco. you’re dead after that if you don’t win. also - you see more usage of it BEFORE YOU RUN OUT OF GOLD then you do in the super late game. either way. the winrates say they are losing badly in post imperial age.

Franks paladins hold out longer - they have throwing axeman, better siege then Burgundians, and you’re wrong
https://aoestats.io/civ/Franks/RM_1v1/1650+
40% winrate in the late game.

if you get bow saw + double bit axe you are still spending 125 food and 150 wood. which is 25 more food and 100 more wood then another civ. yes you’re chopping wood 20% faster then another civ, but you also invested 100 more wood.
if you get horse collar + heavy plow you are still spending 100 food and 200 wood which is 25 more food and 125 more wood then another civ. this bonus won’t even start giving you a return on investment until a normal horse collar farm would expire, 13 minutes later.

that is exactly when the advantage happens. in castle age. when Burgundians need it the most - because their late game is absolute garbage.

yes they use them - but other then byzantines which of those civs are known for their post imp play?

umm most any time people use siege in imp they try to get siege engineers.

it means they have to win between mid castle age (once they got cavalier) until their opponent catches up in imperial age as their paladins are falling off with their lower health. go look at burgundians winrates 40 minutes + it tanks to sub 40%. that’s what i mean by on a timer. they win with their castle into early mid imp or lose.

So Fmilitia doesn’t need a nerf as people cry about it, then what make them sick is their stupid eco which is what I suggest to nerf.

except what people are doing is getting to imperial age, maxing out. then hitting flemish revolution and having 200 pop of pure army and winning the game with that.

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Then why didn’t they complain about it before?! Because at that time the stupid Burgundians didn’t get 50% discount on eco and here we go again. And I really wanted to know too about what @GamingPriest97 asked you by what you mean by “they are on timer”?

because they were dieing before then because the civ had an eco bonus they couldn’t use combined with weaker units until they could get cavalier which they couldn’t do because they were behind in every way.

I ALREADY ANSWERED IT.

You literally here admit that what make them like this is there new eco bonus, which means their eco in the one that need a nerf which we already have been talking about.

I really think Madrasah needs a big switcheroo. It’s one of the most useless tech in the game. Zakat looks much much better choice. I mean Burgundians cavalry gets half of the gold for free meanwhile Saracens is just stuck with Monks with much worse output.

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no their eco makes them a GOOD CIV. what is killing people is FLEMISH MILITIA. because they can’t handle 200 pop of military.
a civ on a timer like burgundians is needs a GOOD ECO TO DO WHAT THEY DO.

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But how often are you going for paladin in 1v1? Again, no BL paladin is still the best unit in the game when your opponent can only afford FU cavalier.

Okay so I understand you correctly that your claim is Burgundians have to pay more upfront to make use of their bonus right? That’s true but they also save 50% food where other civs have to pay full price, so that’s great on its own. They also get those techs earlier so the return of the invested resources (that every civ has to pay anyway) happens earlier too. The bonus is probably better than the Vietnamese bonus.

What I mean by that argument is that Burgundians trash game is not super garbage but just generic. Sure they might lose against civs that get bonuses for their trash units but they still can potentially afford more gold units than any other civ in the game

Thanks! I still don’t think their paladins fall off in 1v1 but I get your argument :slight_smile:

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maybe - but again the civ is balanced winrate wise. and again - they absolutely lose once gold runs out.

great but its not overwhelming. and thats only compared to generic civ that gets no eco bonuses. how many of those exist? Lithuanians start with an extra 150 food - so compared to burgundians they would be 200 food and 200 wood ahead. Franks don’t have to buy horse collar at all. and their berry bonus is bringing in berry food faster. Vikings literally get free wheelbarrow and handcart.

which is absolutely needed cuz the civ dies otherwise.

and look at how good vietnamese are. a solid mid tier civ at best.

their winrate in post imp is garbage.

they don’t hold up to arbs nearly as well as normal paladins do, and once gold runs out the civ is garbage without gold.

Indeed. They should introduce Zakat as the new tech which will make better perofrmance and more sense.