you’re talking about doing an insanely greedy opening - but the problem is that other civs will be aging up faster and able to apply pressure that requires a response. i don’t think it will work well at all.
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Everyone is whining about Burgundians having a 50% food reduction and an age earlier. This would have 15 threads about how broken no matter how crappy the military is
You can literally watch any good level streamer playing with burgundians, even tho there’s still no consensus on what the best build is atm. Some ven say 7 on sheep and bit axe right away, for example.
Twitch here’s one, that was his first time trying the new burgundians, he’s a 2k3 player. Obviously the build became better and better after he tried it off stream
Also, since it looked so impossbile to some of you, i just tried. Arrived up with a 21 pop scrush while walling with a whole lot 4 in game sec of idle (instead of 9:40 it was 9:44). i built the stable, made one vill and then did both bow saw and wheelbarrow. Along that i made 4 scouts and 1 spear while also full walling. It’s not as hard as you believe it is.
You can also hear Viper saying that atm is simply hard to punish Burgundians (2:33: 25), and that’s even after he played a super greedy game Twitch
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And yet viper picks burgs about at position 8 or so. Not even close to the best arabia civs.
What tells this to you.
If there is one player able to get away with greed, it’s viper. But even he doesn’t value burgs in the highest spots for arabia.
Why aren’t we talking about the other 7 civs picked before burgs to be nerfed?
And of course burgs will fall of in value because it’s pretty clear they need to nerf flemish revolution, it’s just too strong in arena.
let me ask you this though - if the civ is nerfed in its eco - do you think it should be compensated by a buff elsewhere? because that civ is going to fall off hard in the late game, especially in team game situations where they lack bloodlines.
i still want to see more data on it and not just go based on “feelings” and two weeks worth of games.
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yes, even tho it’s hard to find a way to buff them in other ways that won’t break everything else
it’s way too early to know how really good they ar in arabia. Again, no one ha sfigured out the optimal build order to play them. One thing that now is 100% certain is that they can compete against the top dogs on arabia. Yes, atm i think that the only really bad matchup they have are mayans.
The only civs that atm really needs a nerf are the chinese, that has to be hit in their eco somehow.
Nope. They still have really valuable options in 1v1 arabia. A paladin without bloodlines is still a paladin, and while it might sucks to end up in a tgs where your pocket has subotpimal palas in the late game, in 1v1 that upgrade for them is a no brainer. Let people figure out how to play them at their best, before telling they should not be nerfed. Hell, you were not believing they could do a 21 pop scout with eco upgrades, and yet they easily can.
Once again i do believe that this bonus is way too strong and it should be tweaked, but i also believe that time needs to pass before understanding how to make the best use out of that food discount
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I feel like this is an overlooked point. The discount on the upgrade means it’s reasonably possible to grab this upgrade in a 1v1 that has gone late, while normally for other civs that have this upgrade, it is expensive enough to be a rather risky move.
(I’m not saying that Burgundians need a nerf though, for me it’s just simply too early to say anything about that. Seems like they have enough ‘holes’ in their tech tree to not become overwhelmingly strong in Imperial.)
From my personal gameplays I find that they are pretty strong in Castle Age thanks to the Cavalier upgrade. It is often a big enough power spike for me to get the gg before anyone hits Imp.
It’s the other way around. Some people here demand nerfs, but there is NO evidence yet Burgs need any nerfs. They just hypothetically make “OP builds” with them. But they don’t perform as OP as they are called.
To nerf a Civ you need evidence, and there is no evidence the civ need to be nerfed in arabia.
Only in Arena they seem to be too strong, and there are various videos in the net to show it’s flemish revolution what makes them so strong in this particular map.
Yes, this can and should be adressed. But there is NO EVIDENCE the eco discount would be too strong right now.
And opposed to your expectations, the winrate of burgs is constantly DROPPING the last week.
Maybe there will be figured out a better build for burgs. But until then, you can’t just claim there would be an op build and preventively demand a nerf. Only IF there is evidence such a build exist, you could argue in favor of a nerf.
The obligation to proof is by the accuser, not the defender.
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I literally saw Tatoh and Viper and Daut did a sick things with last Burgundians buff, they even researched all lumber camp and mill in both dark and feudal with wheelbarrow and some of them researched handcart, and no they weren’t punished as many people say, actually they won all these game with very smoothy eco and military too. In Arena too Burgudnians are sick and much better than Arabia. Their eco bonus need a nerf for sure.
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The buff they received is objectively really strong and there’s no doubt it need to be tweaked, the onyl question is “how much”. once again, you were telling me people couldn’t do 21 pop scrush with eco upgrades, and it was easily proven wrong. I mean, you can already make a shit ton of scouts and pass around 19/20 min with better eco than your opponent without having an extra specific build, but i’m pretty sure that impossible too, right?
Tbf the evidence is that suddenly they can compete with chinese. Seems like a pretty strong idnciator to me
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Well I suggested to be 25% dark, 35% feudal, 45% castle, isn’t this still strong and good?!
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not without compensation elsewhere. the civ falls off hard in the late game and in team games pretty much every other civs have a higher top end.
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This is a better version in both cost and speed of Vietnamese eco bonus. Vietnamese more and less save less than 50% resources across all techs. The extra bonus is very good with wheelbarrow (allows to train one additional villager after feudal age).
Current burgundian bonus save less resources than Vietnamese, allow them to be researched early.
You may tweak the % values to make it more balanced, though. But that can be done with current burgundian bonus if we wish to replace it.
Well, burgs winrate before minute 20… let’s look…
Oh its 44 %…
Clearly OP!!! Nerf them to 25 % again!!!
Actually every civ can “compete” with chinese. Huns have actually a 65 % winrate against chinese in 1650+. Burgs haven’t shown they would be particuarly good or bad against chinese yet. Where you get your proof for your claim they would even challenge chinese spot on the top?
I don’t see any proof for that. It’s yet another unproven claim.
I love that people still use that site like it means something. This is like the good old time when people told aztecs didn’t need nerfs because rhey had 49.something win rate on ladder.
Even the fact that the elo considered is 1650+ (like a 1k6 could play like a 1k9, let alone a a 2k+) is pretty dumb.
Chinese are considered the strongest arabia 1v1 civ. Chinese has not a single bad match up on arabia, let alone the huns.
All i see is someone trying to read datas in a dumb manner, while at the same time claiming wrong things like the already mentioned “impossible 21 pop scrush with eco upgrades”.
Everyone will tell you the best civs are chinese, mayans, vikings, franks & co,
And here’s your precious data. Are we supposed now to say Incas are better than Chinese? That Celts are better than Chinese? That Indians are better than Franks? But muh data, am I right?
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I think instead of win rate, the PLAY RATE is more, or at least just as important. Look how many people actually choose those civs? Indians - 1.62%? Not very popular, and I bet that win rate is only because they are picked to combat the Franks on 'rabya.
Just being completely honest, I would rather have a civ that is fun to play over simply being more often winning. And winning what? Arbitrary numbers in an old RTS game? Not dissing, just saying. I think the overall goal would be to have each civ more fun to play. Even if you lose, you might have fought a very good fight that really brought out the strategy elements, isn’t that why we play the game?
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Well, at first I said I doubt it’s possible 20 pop with heavy plow. After this you came along with a 21 pop build WITHOUT heavy plow. And my statement is, it’s not a VIABLE build with 22 or 23 pop as it is too slow and too tight. I even think the full greed attempt is better than this cause it would allow you to adjust your defence to your opponents opener.
And I use the stats properly, they just support my opinion that it isn’t overpowered. They support my opinion that they have a strong mid-game eco, but the fact that they have to invest more earlier on to get that advantage is a disadvantage in the early game and can be punished.
And this I stated BEFORE they added it to the core game. And now the stats show exactly what I prognosted. Burgs are still vulnerarble early on, but have a strong mid-game. I feel quite confident with my argument, cause the stats support it. But also because I have experience in the game and know how vulnerarble the early eco is. Every bit of extra investment can cost you the game. And burgundians don’t have to invest less, they have to invest more to get something out of their bonus.
Like malay, burgs can easily lose their game for being to greedy. And malay have to invest far less than burgs, only a bit extra food for continouus vil production.
Actually Malay have a comparable eco, in my booming analysis they are even better than burgs - nobody states their eco would be op.
I think burgs are now an interesting civ, cause you need to figure out how greedy you can be with them and how to work with their powerspikes. It’s something special, to have a civ designed around untypical powerspikes. It adds diversity to the game.
Also interesting to play against burgs: YOu want to hit them as fast as possible, but also not overinvest into feudal as you want to catch up with their earlier eco techs. You need to fight cavaliers and paladins earlier than you used to, but you know that their lategame (outside flemish revolution) is comparably bad.
I think it’s a very interesting concept.
ok give them siege rams, but I think they don’t need anything, they need a nerf without any compensation because they are too strong now.
yeah they are SO STRONG IN TEAM GAMES, and insanely strong when there is no gold income.
oh wait. garbage.
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many civs when no gold are garbage and it is already very rare to reach a game with no gold in the map and by this they have the advs by their farms and bonuses and discounts. this is really useless argument to say no gold income!