Balancing the Hussite Wagon mercenary

Age of Empires III: DE III - Discussion
1

I have no life so I made this study, since there was debate on another forum post, unrelated to the discussion, might as well make a dedicated thread here.

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Also, check this out for more trivia on the unit:

:right_arrow: UNIT PREVIEW

As stated in the compendium:

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Comparably, it’s closest to a falconet available in age 2, for the costs and attack type.
A few things stand out though…

  • It’s movement is higher on limber mode, but fully eliminated in bombard mode (Slightly faster switching, but still kills options to micro them back, forces engaging).
  • The attack is not even proportionally higher than a leather cannon for being an age 2 artillery piece (and leather cannons are cheaper).
  • BIG cost, including the shipments for them (The 2 wagons in age 2 are worth 1000c, but shipping costs 600c (leaves you 400c), and the Russian card gives you 500c, but costs 200c (leaving you 300c, and a lame “upgrade”)). Deflection is not worth that much monayyy :money_with_wings:
  • Negative multiplier for buildings (takes 5,5 minutes for 1 of these to take down an outpost), maybe this one is fairer, they are not intended for them in concept…
  • Survives 2 culverin shots if in bombard mode, but at 5 hp :laughing: (If it deflected 5hp during the battle before the volley, it’s screwed)
  • As it’s not an outlaw, instead a mercenary, unless you play with the few civs that let you do earlier, you can’t upgrade them until age 5
  • It does function as an anti artillery if you look at the stats, thumbs up for that part :+1:

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Above are the base stats in age 3 (no upgrades)

:right_arrow: UNIT BALANCING?

For what is meant essentially as a medieval early tank, it does not live up to it in the game.
So, what is the key to making it viable? Buffing the hp? The attack? The unit type?

Well, might as well start by changing the costs of the shipments so they are worth the 700 resources an age 2 shipment should, also giving the russian card more of a gimmick than a different resource macro…

  • Russian card cost removed (still sends only 1), reduces cost of wagons to 150w+250c and now allows them to move slowly in bombard mode (From some of the ilustrations of “Гуляй-город” they were less “wagons” and more “single wall on wheels”, so hopefully this reflects the feeling)
  • 2 Wagons new cost: 300c (Not 600c, holy moly, maybe 350c if in practice it makes it too easy to deter 2 falc shipments)

Now to make it more interesting, and justify the extra cannons you see inside…

  • Rate of fire halved from 4 to 2
  • Base damage halved from 60 to 30

Now you got more options to micro the attack, reducing overkill, the dps isn’t changed though, so, as to increase the low dps…

  • Multiplier vs infantry increased from 2 to 3
  • Negative multipliers against shock troopers (0,75) and buildings (0,5) removed (They still deal LOW dps vs them (vs buildings it would still be 1/3 worth of a falc)

Not only it makes the UI cleaner and more straight forward, also making the “anti infantry” part more worth it.

I was hesitant about suggesting an hp increase or making the double armor active also during limber mode, but they have enough hp to survive 1 falc while advancing and fire back a volley right before they reload (More testing would be nice though, they do have to get pretty close so the falc can’t just retreat from the IMMOBILE wagon).

So, overall, the shipping option is easier, the multipliers are better, and the firing is faster.
Not overpowered, not underpowered, just in the middle (I hope).

Want numbers, have some:

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:right_arrow: Closing thoughts

Right now, I’m NOT AT ALL (same as many) using the wagons as they stand, they are not worth the investment, not even as a desperate attempt to deter artillery while stuck in age 2.

I’d use them with these patch notes though, they’d be a cheeky way to extend the age 2 while competing with age 3 artillery and still devastating persistent infantry.

These changes are purely focused on buffing the attack though, maybe the key is the HP, maybe making them an anti cavalry unit like used historically, perhaps even giving them something niche like “Aura that slows down enemy movement speed”.

Who knows, but they do need a change…

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1 Like
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Well, after playing with it for A WHILE, turns out they do need a change beyond stated.

  • The whole deflection thing plays badly against itself, a 500c unit should not quickly be reduced to 1hp by deflecting damage from the forward infantry, it’s hp is not high enough for it to tank that much damage, makes it SUPER easy to 1 shot snipe, you are WAY better off sending them straight to the front and tanking it themselves with their high armor (but risking melee counter), if so, why have the ability at all???
  • It’s TOOOOOOOO AKWARD to use vs artillery, the one thing they are supposed to be good at, since they can’t move at all in bombard mode, the enemy can kite your forward units to take out outside of the range of the wagons, so again, you need them in front, for which you need to move them, which requires them on limber mode, for with reduces the armor a- ufff, you know where that ends…

Also, not being able to move means that if you want to pull them away from heavy cavalry to put heavy infantry in between, well, you cant, you need to first get them on limber mode and move them, that or move the infantry ALL THE FLIPPIN WAY AROUND THE WAGONS TO DEFEND :face_with_steam_from_nose:

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This is me, fighting a much lower ELO friend using 50% of all military expenses on wagons, and getting grossed out by the inefficiency :v

So, changes?

First, to tackle the deflection thing…

  • Either change it so it only reflects the damage made to other artillery (like itself, making great use of the hp gimmick), or change it so it improves the hp of nearby allies by X% (Like a bagpiper).

Now the unit is as tanky as one expects it to be, rather than… not at all lol.
So, now the movement thing…

  • Since the concept is for the unit to be essentially static (since wagons like that could weight around 1500kg, compared to a falconet at 500kg), it could be a limited bombard mode movement speed of 1 (Same speed as a lil’ bombard), compared to a 1,6 for the falconets (It may mean those little fences around them would need to be removed from the model, but whatever, I’d welcome the change).
  • The russian card could improve movement speed to 1,6 so it matches other artillery.

Now the unit can reposition itself 1 millimeter closer to kill that last skirmisher without having to spend 3 hours going into limber mode, moving, going into bombard mode, and then shooting again.

Also, fun fact, if you send the russian card twice (age 5), as I thought, this happens :laughing:

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i agree with everything you have written so far, but atleast in my tests against AI i got some use out of them by having them idle out of combat in my backline and healing them with multiple priests at once, while they are absorbing my infantry’s damage

this way u have basically abuns with extra steps^^’ giving u extra hp during combat.
still not worth it, but a thing to consider

4

I mostly agree with what’s been said, except for the part about its anti-artillery role being a good thing. The problem with the Hussite Wagon is that its role isn’t clearly defined. The priority should be to redefine its role before talking about shipping cost and stats to change. In my view, the Hussite Wagon should have a solid base health pool (600), while staying weak against melee attacks and artillery. I’d keep its deflection skill as it is, because its role would be to take damage, not to deal it. If you think this change is good, then the shipping cost seems fair to me. Its anti-artillery role isn’t intuitive at all, I don’t see how a static wooden box with two firecrackers would deal more damage to artillery.

5

I don’t think the wagon should be able to move even in bombard mode. I actually find that pretty unique and interesting in terms of purely defensive gameplay. It’s its role that needs rethinking.

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The Fortified Wagon is an odd merc artillery that has some of the Culverin’s multipliers alongside a deflection ability. It doesn’t seem to do its role very well, whatever it may be.

I think it’s supposed to an artillery tank, that can take some hits and protect your units through its deflection ability. Shouldn’t it have 75% ranged resistance at least though, if wants to be a tanky artillery unit? I’m pretty sure most if not all artillery in AoE3 have the ranged resistance stats in those levels.

7

Well, here is a high elo game with them.

They did get some culverin action, but it’s a clear skill issue that they got to hahah.

Beware the foul mouth btw, tuned up to 11 this time :sweat_smile: