how are they exaggerating?
people were just going with the argument he gave - lets say you do this with just 1 elephant. if the strategy is SO STRONG that it needs to be nerfed phoenix, how come it isn’t meta right now?
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Well unlike the OP you don’t have the excuse of the Khmer castle being easy to hide, and in an Arabia game there is no way in hell the enemy can make too much ballista eles in castle for monks to not work.
When others exagerate that’s bad, when it’s you it’s for “clarity”. Interesting concept.
Since you have trouble in reading comprehension, shall I remind at no moment I said the Khmer would be nerfed? I said that a niche unit would be getting nicher. But hry I’m talking to the person who think camels don’t work and that longswords must be buffed at all cost.
One ballista ele = 180 res, 20 ballista eles as the OP said = 3600 res. Wow that’s actually pinpoint accurate! Or an understatement if you throw in the castle cost as well.
Oh reminder that whether you call people who don’t want some new mechanics “close minded” you mention a new mechanic. Tatars getting free sheep for a free super boom = fine, a meme unit having a situational use = bad?
Oh I’m so sorry MR.Pro that your totally pro opponents ruin your games with their super APM foundation scouting 11
Well some of those tier lists were made by Hera, the man whose triple layers farms were supposed to show that Khmer weren’t fine.
Also if you wanna play up the dig up game I can too. I remember why you became “acidic” (at least towards me) and that’s not glorious for your game knowledge.
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This unit is pure trash. Why would devs remove their only purpose?
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exactly, i have no problem with this unit being the only unit in the game that can cut forests in castle age, its incredibly niche, isn’t causing any real balance issues, and could be a fun “meme” strategy.
Lol what? BallistaE one of the most powerful units? When did they become powerful, I must have missed it with their short range, low speed, high cost, need of castle and thousands of units that deals bonus damage vs them.
Also, they cut down a tree at the time, not that worth the investment. It’s more of a meme unit than anything else. Let them keep that, so time to time they are useful.
Pikes, camels, knights, hussars, eagles, mamelukes, mangudais, huskarls, tarkans, kamayuks, genoese xbows and keshiks.
Then I know that Kmer are a strong civ, but their UU is a joke, it doesn’t need a nerf.
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if anything i think the UU needs to benefit from the civ elephant speed buff.
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Yes exactly, or at least give them the same range of a scorps. It already have many more downsides compared to the scorps, so it would be far from OP.
Going for a fast imperial into onagers is better than going for fast castle into ballista elephants. Plus the other player can always build outposts along the wood lines.
To summarize:
- The Ballista elephant is the only miltary unit that can cut through trees in Castle Age, as Onagers and Trebuchets are not available until Imperial Age.
- Furthermore, Khmer can advance to Castle Age more quickly, as they do not have to build certain buildings to do so.
- In a walled map (Hideout, Black Forest, Arena, etc) which includes trees as part of the wall, a Khmer player can make a single Ballista elephant to cut through trees.
- The opposing player would not be alerted to the tree cutting, unlike any other unit which normally would attack the opposing player’s wall.
- The opposing player would normally be booming on such maps and not be prepared.
Responses have included:
- A castle is required. Although a team could sling their stone, there would still be some build time after reaching Castle Age.
- The Ballista Elephant takes time to create.
- The opposing player should be scouting.
As a compromise, the Ballista Elephant could have tree cutting removed until Imperial Age (rather than needing to be upgraded to elite).
All that being said, I’ve seen plenty of games where a castle drop followed by Arambai or Petards can quickly cut through walls. Although this is not as surprising as a sneaky tree cut, it can still catch booming opponents off guard.
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Good summarise. Thanks for that.
I would still go against removing tree cutting option because there are viable ways to counter or get altered by this. It’s not a “be all end all” situation.
Also, as other members pointed out, cutting tree one at a time takes a lot of time. Even on hideout, cutting through middle forest still takes some time, and you’d need to cut a large enough gap for units to get through without trickling them in. If the opponent does not respond to this huge time gap or just get an outpost with town watch, I’d say it’s a bad play for that opponent. Scouting sneaky cutting isn’t exclusive to hideout either.
Also, building a wall against the wood line is a thing.
This has become toxic. I don’t care to continue the discussion. I just wanted to bring up something inconsistent and I wanted peoples feedback. I didn’t make this post so a bunch of sweaty nerds could tell me I’m ■■■■ so they can feel adequate. You’re welcome to disagree, but try and be nice. My apologies I’m not 2500 elo and I don’t always build outposts and check my minimap every 20 seconds. My api isn’t 600 like yours is.
Pikes are not a counter to ballista elephants, I can see you’re assuming they are but you’ve never tried it. It doesn’t work. Knights and camels work somewhat, you need to take them on in the open, if you try it in a choke they will be destroyed very easily.Mamelukes, mangudais, huskarls, tarkans, kamayuks genoese cbow and keshiks are all UU and surprise, I wasn’t any of those civs.
I know I made a comment about wanting to end the discussion but I missed this comment and I didn’t want to end it with this still standing. It’s false and telling me I should make huskarls if I was playing chinese or something, well that’s not exactly good advice lol.
And people gave you their feedback, but you didn’t like and start ranting.
The inconsistency is a non-argument, it’s like stating that we should give jannissaries bow and arrows because gunpowder units are usually imp units.
Cutting trees in castle is the only feature remotely useful about ballista eles so I think is fine to keep it
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because we provided you feedback you don’t like its toxic? what did you expect an echo chamber of everyone agreeing with you?
He said he didn’t want to continue there is no use to keep going.
@anon63664082 Could you close the topic please?
Considering that most of the times BaE can’t be massed like scorps, and that they are slow, pikes can get the jump on them an kill them in few shots.
I did try it, then again maybe it was my adversary mistake or it was luck but for me it worked. Then again it happened like 2 times, but most of the time people don’t use B@E.
Anything in that have a scorps bolt attack is OP in a choke point. And then if they are in a choke point onagers and BBC work even better, or you lure them away. I mean I get that there are situations where they can be OP but I don’t think that they are that much, and I think that the are even less dependent by their tree-cutting-ability.
You didn’t refer to a particular situation or game, you just affirmed that B@E don’t have any direct counter, and I listed any unit that deal bonus damage vs them.
If the B@E is super strong vs a particular civ, it’s fine. The game is full of civ that have bad matchups vs other specific civ.
It’s not false, you didn’t write on the post that you were playing Chinese, so I couldn’t know, but my point still stands.
You don’t balance a unit around one single matchup, if only chinese are weak vs them, I think it’s still fine (they do have halbs and camels though, so I think that they do have counter).
I know that it may be frustrating when the discussion isn’t going where you wanted, but I didn’t offend you, I just disagreed with you. I think I deserve a chance to explain myself better.
If people offended you, you should flag them, otherwise if they stayed polite you don’t have a reason to close the topic.
I personally think that if the B@E (to differentiate with the BE) could lose the cutting tree feature if it would be buffed in a conventional way, so that the unit has a reason to be trained.
I didn’t accuse you of “offending me”. Some people couldn’t help but tell me I’m trash instead of giving feedback. I wanted to end the discussion to avoid gaining more hostile replies.
Did I say you specifically were toxic? No, I didn’t. So why are you assuming I’m talking to you, or that you talk for everyone else in this thread?
I’m muting this thread and make sure to never ask about balance questions again.
I didn’t realise the AoE2 community was so aggressively anti change.
I know that I didn’t offend you, but I was saying that in general if another person here have offended you you should just flag them, if someone talked trash to you, you could just have fleag them, and so on.
If those people instead just gave the feedback that you didn’t expected because they disagreed with you then you can’t be offended.
I quickly read the topic, so maybe there was something that I miss, but I didn’t see anyone that offended you or was impolate to you.