Berber Imp UT is weak and needs to be changed

After the release of The Mountain Royals, Berbers’ Maghrebi Camels became a weak unique tech. While Georgian cavalry heal for free and since Feudal Age, Berber camels only heal on Imperial Age and with a relatively high cost (700F, 300G).
Therefore, IMO Maghrebi Camels should become a civ bonus starting from Castle Age (healing 10hp/min at Castle and 15hp/min at Imperial), and Berber imperial UT should be changed (maybe packed Trebs moving 40% faster or Knight-line getting an attack bonus vs. non-spear infantry or siege units.)

Edit: about the Georgians, their (Heavy) Cav Archers also heal without needing a tech, though they lack Thumb Ring and Ring Armor.

4 Likes

From my perspective, because it affects Camel Archers, a unit that is frequently on the move, it is well worth the investment. The healing speed is intentionally slow because Camel Archers are terrifying units. It is not meant to be stronger than or to compete with the Georgian regeneration rate. The cheaper Knights/Camels, and the faster vils/ships are plenty competitive bonuses. Genitours are also a nice additive.

6 Likes

I think the reason it may feel weak is because of general power-creep in the game. I’m not saying unequivocally no, but i’d be very hesitant about the change.

I am honestly of the opinion that even a regeneration rate of 25 HP/minute isn’t too strong. I came up with a civ concept that has that healing rate for gunpowder units, which are much rarer and typically only appear in the Imperial Age, so I figured it was balanced. Buffing the healing rate to what I suggested would make the tech actually worth it.

1 Like

2025 resolution - African DLC with Berbers rework.

you mean hp/min, right? 10hp/sec means it can out heal a knight attacking it.

2 Likes

Berbers should be completely redesigned. Their bonuses are so meh. Ships move faster, villagers move faster, cheap cav… It feels generic. You could make maghrebi camels a castle UT instead of Kasbah which is pretty useless. But again regenerating camel archers is already strong so idk. But after I made a custom campaign about them I think they could use some major changes.

3 Likes

I think compare isolated bonus and UT’s is wrong. You can’t buff berber UT without taking in count the others civ bonuses that Georgians don’t have.
Berbers are already a very smooth and strong civ. Just because a new civ have a similar bonus for free doesn’t make them less powerfull

1 Like

Yes, thank you, I’ve fixed the mistake on the post :slightly_smiling_face:

Georgians bonus made Maghrebi Camels UT really pale. And other regeneration UT Medical Corps is just a joke now.

Berber win rates are very well balanced atm. I think regeneration is subtle but underrated; people don’t realize how a small effect can slowly make a much bigger difference in the long run, but especially when you’re using archers, it really does add up.

For context, with 25 camel archers regenerating, it only takes about 2 minutes for the tech to pay for itself. You could easily see that in one intense engagement.

3 Likes

I find it can take considerably more effort to kill camel archers when they can heal and hit-and -run.

2 Likes

How about reduce Elite Camel Archer HP but buff the UT?
Would make their Heavy Camel Riders more useful.

2 Likes

But they can already heal themselves today, with the imp UT.

Moreover, Georgian HCA also heal themselves, though they lack Thumb Ring and Ring Armor and have less attack than Elite Camel Archers.

No, this is a completely different issue which is based on Berber’s win rate.
Actually Georgians civ bonus need to be nerfed to 4/ 6(8) /12 or it will create power inflation. This is totally developers’ fault.

UT must be stronger than the similar civ bonus because UT need to be researched and it only take place in mid-late game. Almost all civs followed this rule, such as Aztec & Burmese’s infantry attack, Viking & Armenians’ infantry HP , Spanish & Incas’ villager upgrades, Pole & Berbers’ cavalry cost, Teuton & Bulgarians’ infantry armor, etc.

1 Like

It’s not that it needs a buff. Other civs just need a nerf. This is a power creep problem generally. Not a Berbers problem.

It is a good tech to outlast your opponent in trash wars, the only buff I would give it is perhaps a healing rate buff (not sure it’s needed).

Berbers have one of the best late game comps in the game with ECA + Hussar + BBC.

Berbers are so ridiculously strong as a civilisation that I think it can be altered even only slightly… They already have a massive capacity to 1) overwhelm & to 2) countre enemies & even utilise their 3) 10% faster walking villes for easier castle drops or hidden production buildings alongside even the 4) Genitour which IS (not arguably it just is better) than the Imperial skirmisher upgrade costing f/w not w/g. The Berbers if they change this and make camels heal passively (a part of the base civilisation bonus list) will absolutely need a nerf elsewhere. Because 5) they’re an incredibly adaptable 1 vs. 1 civ as discussed so far, but it’s in team-games that I’d worry about them most.

  1. Cheaper stable units & adaptable tech tree.
  2. Genitours, Cheap Knights + Camels + CHEAPEST Hussars, BBCs with S.E., Pikemen even have all upgrades (just no Halb - Mag miss both squires & final armour), they even have Hand Cannoneers… Their Monks missing Block Printing is the only TRUE negative I can think of for this civ.
  3. Faster Villes is amazing from Nomad maps to castle drops to hidden production buildings to laming & boar luring (B.F. for example), even it can be useful for WALLING quickly if the enemy petards or gets Onagers cutting trees & such.
  4. Genitours as I’ve mentioned are just too good, way too good… In castle age they take 1 damage per arrow from T.C.s - so even a Britons player needs to look out if Berbers were ever slightly ahead with an eco boom in castle.
  5. Again they’re adaptable & can work amazingly well with allies or countre specific opponents quite well/easily.

Nice how much you know about the civs till you realize about Gurjaras…

I wouldn’t worry about the Gurjaras for Hussars, they have Byzantine syndrome.

Though, if I had to use a hussar without Blast furnace, I’d certainly like to have them be much cheaper to facilitate throwing them away to be cover for units I actually care about, to make up for the fact that they’re pitiable raiders.