Best buff for Turks/ Gun powder civs in general?

Hey guys what do you think if Turks/Gunpowder civs can have handcannoneers in castle age, do you think it will be broken? I suggested an idea before to make all gunpowder civs can make handcannoneers in castle age, but i think the Turks/Indians need this more than any civ

Hey have handcannoners in castle, as their UU.

But need a castle to create them, not much useful

I have an idea like this: changing the turk bonus of gunpowder techs 50% cheaper into university techs 50% cheaper. I think it would be enough (together with all those buffs they are gonna receive in the next patch). And I think I wouldn’t touch Turks after that.

also we still don’t know what kind of buff hand canoneers or cav archers will receive in general (if any)

Not useful, because the main problem that Gunpowder civs have is actually in castle age not imperial, cheaper units/techs in imperial will not change anything, i think if they be able to create handcannoneer in castle age will be really good, but i prefer this for Turks/Indians because they are the worst gunpowder civs

It would absolutely be OP, because HC do not require any upgrades to be efficient, whereas crossbows need ~1500 resources to do anything (university, ballistics, fletching, bodkin, crossbowman, does not include armor and thumb ring). They kill cav much faster (13 damage vs 3 after armor), they can kill skirms (11 damage vs 1 against full armor), they destroy eagles, huskarls and mangonels. They are unstopable with any kind of meatshield.

Nah you are exaggerating, xbows and skirms and knights can hunt them so quick, don’t forget the HC are not easy to mass, they cost 45F,50G, and their training time is 34s and they have 60% accuracy, bad frame delay, slow fire rate

85% accuracy for xbow vs 65% accuracy for HC (and this is worst-case scenario) doesn’t make much of a difference. Even if xbows hit their targets twice as often (considering nearly twice the ROF and slightly better accuracy), it’s still a total of 6 damage vs 13 against knights. Without any upgrades for HC. They also reach critical mass much faster than crossbows, because you save 1500 resources on upgrades. It costs 2500+ res to make half decent army of 20 xbows, and it only costs 1500 res to make 15 HC, which have superior damage output against most targets. Turks also have +20% gold mining and +20% (25%?) faster created gunpowder units, which would help them to mass their units.

Again

Nah you are exaggerating, xbows and skirms and knights can hunt them so quick, don’t forget the HC are not easy to mass, they cost 45F,50G, and their training time is 34s and they have 60% accuracy, bad frame delay, slow fire rate

Again.

85% accuracy for xbow vs 65% accuracy for HC (and this is worst-case scenario) doesn’t make much of a difference. Even if xbows hit their targets twice as often (considering nearly twice the ROF and slightly better accuracy), it’s still a total of 6 damage vs 13 against knights. Without any upgrades for HC. They also reach critical mass much faster than crossbows, because you save 1500 resources on upgrades. It costs 2500+ res to make half decent army of 20 xbows, and it only costs 1500 res to make 15 HC, which have superior damage output against most targets. Turks also have +20% gold mining and +20% (25%?) faster created gunpowder units, which would help them to mass their units.

Repeating your point doesn’t move the discussion in any direction.

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I really don’t know where is the “OP” point by making the handcannoneers be available in castle age for Turks/Indians especially or other gunpowder civs?! They already have a gunpowder units in their castles in castle age and they are not broken, all players with spanish just go castle and conquistadors and they are the best gunpowder unit, are they hard to defend against?! No it is not, i don’t think Handcannoneer is OP if they will be in castle age, because if they are really OP in castle age then they are also OP in imperial, what is the difference?!

You’ve missed a ‘tiny’ detail. Those units are produced from castles, and it matters a lot. For example, leitis massively outperform knights in castle age with cheaper cost and superior damage output, yet every pro player makes knights for at least the first half of Castle Age. Same deal with boyars. Since other gunpowder units are produced from castles, you need to put yourself in a disadvantageous position of fast castling, and then spend a lot of time massing your UU. In case of HC from archery ranges, you can start production immediately upon hitting Castle Age at any given point. And your opponent won’t have a counter to it for a long time. Knights melt to HC, it’s not even close. Mangonels are one-shotted by 6 HCs and can’t oneshot them back (in case of turk HC), skirms require a huge resource investment and are easily countered by any meatshield, crossbows might work, but not every civ has decent crossbows.
Just think about it this way: in Castle Age HC are better than xbows against almost any unit (except MAYBE against other crossbows and monks) simply because they can overcome high pirce armor of supposed counter units (knights, eagles, mangos, skirms).

I dunno, maybe bracer, chemistry and unit upgrade for the total of +3 damage and +1 range for other ranged units? HC are stuck with their stats.

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You seem to forgot something important: you can already mass archers in feudal age. So you arrive in Castle age with a mass. You cant mass HC in the same time.

Still not liking this idea. I dont think this is the solution.

No…

Just no. Gunpowder in castle age seems broken. I think would make Turk OP as hell. They basically get Imperial Units even more early out of an archery range. Level 1 archers would end up being murdered by turks. They would be super turk hand cannoneer rushes. You have units that don’t even need many blacksmith upgrades to be deadly so early other than armor. Don’t need Fletching or Bodkin Arrow.

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How about chemistry upgrade? HC needs chemistry, chemistry also effects Crossbowman, Cavalry Archer and Mangonel. So this just nerfs infantry civs a lot. I think +10 bonus damage hurts in Castle Age. But still skirm+pike or skirm+light cav can counter Hand Cannons.