Biggest Complaint I've Seen So Far

Age of Empires: DE I - Discussion
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I’ve only been active for maybe a day, but I seem to be seeing at least a good number of people in one particular thread who think this:

  1. Windows 10 exclusivity is going to destroy this game.
  2. Having the game exclusively in the Windows 10 Store - i.e. not on store shelves, not on Steam - is going to kill the game.
  3. The financial loss to Microsoft by the number of people who can’t play the game due to not having Windows 10 will be huge.

I have seen people post in other threads an “ultimatum” that the game comes to Steam or they won’t buy it. I’ve also seen an admin. here post her own comment about the reason they are NOT using Steam (quoting @C4N who was replied to here):

@jennywaboom said:

@C4N said:
I guess the answer is pretty obvious but at the moment it’s not 100% sure because you need an Xbox live account to sign up for the beta.

But since AoE3, AoEIIHD and AoMEE are all on Steam I supposse this will be there too.

We’ve chosen to release “Age of Empires: Definitive Edition” exclusively in the Windows Store and we’re excited about what that entails, including tons of Xbox Live goodness (achievements, cloud saves, multiplayer on the fastest, more reliable gaming network and more).

Microsoft is making an absolutely horrible decision here. I’ve thought about my initial reply, where I tried to defend why Microsoft might be avoiding Steam, but I realized even my thoughts on this were garbage. LEt’s cover three specific reasons Microsoft is avoiding using Steam:

a. Achievements - available on Steam, see this;
b. Cloud Saves - based on my understanding, also available on Steam, but not critical; local saves are fine;
c. Multiplayer - you guessed it, available on Steam in numerous other Age of Empires games and Age of Mythology

So what actual benefits is Microsoft gaining by taking a game away from the most popular gaming community available? Hmm, I have an idea; maybe they don’t want to pay Steam a portion of sales on a brand new game, whereas on the older republished content they don’t mind?

Microsoft, this is an important statement from your gaming community. It’s not all about money. It’s about making the best decisions. Taking a PC-ONLY GAME and not putting it through Steam is a bad decision. Let’s review:

  1. GTA V is available on Steam. It’s a huge game, probably the biggest example I can come up with (I’ll ignore the fact that people are getting permanently banned from multiplayer for something I have no experience with to know personally).
  2. Playerunknown’s Battlegrounds is a huge game that is currently available on Steam. It has a huge gaming community because of Steam. Without Steam, it probably wouldn’t be so huge.
  3. Undertale also was a huge game. I never got on board this one (or the others, in fact, though I thought about GTA), but every day I see in chat people making Undertale-related jokes. It’s literally part of culture on sites like Twitch now. You get jokes about how you need more determination. You see people doing music remixes from game music. It’s everywhere.

If Microsoft makes the horrible decision to keep Age of Empires Definitive Edition off of Steam and not available for users outside of Windows 10, they are going to regret this decision. I can understand in the case of a game like Sea of Thieves (whose beta I also signed up for and did the online survey), but as a non-Xbox owner, I don’t like having to go through hoops and hurdles just to figure out how to sign up an account. You need to make it obvious, RIGHT FROM THE BETA SIGNUP FORMS, how to get your account set up with links to the proper places; don’t force users to guess. That’s why it took me two days to sign up here. I couldn’t figure it out because I am not an Xbox gamer. I’m a Nintendo and PC gamer. I will probably never own an Xbox. Going back to Sea of Thieves, if the game will be capable of communicating with the Xbox version, then that is something that would be awesome and I hope is something that can also be brought to the Steam platform someday for games; however, I can nonetheless understand why using your own platform works for something like that. Age of Empires Definitive Edition doesn’t need this.

I’m going to close with some comments from people in reply to the quote above. I’m only going to look at immediate thoughts, not going through the entire thread, with one exception.

@smitske said:
Only most players aren’t excited about that.
Remember the disaster called games for windows live, a poorly developed platform that forced xbox live on the player?
And the way you are talking it will be the same again, clueless people that think that pc gamers are waiting for console experiences, most are not. We dont want xbox goodness, we want our pc experience and if you try to force this on us again people will bail out.
M$ is just abusing the game again for their own agenda with a platform that is already being torn down by most gamers and even developers because it attacks everything pc gaming stands for, but M$ does not seem to know what that is any more.
But at least then I don’t have a choice to make, if it isnt on steam I wont be pursuaded.

@Unknown said:
My own opinion about that decision.

  • A huge catastrophic mistake

Aside from my own oppinion about this, there are some points that made me think about this releasing on Steam too:

  • All the other modern AoE games are already on Steam (as said in OP).
  • Steam API allows developers to embed 3rd party online systems (like cross-online with gog galaxy)
  • AoEO were released at first on the marketplace, but released later on Steam too.

I’m sad I was wrong, really sad news for every PC AoE fan who’s been playing on Steam since 2013 (AoEIIHD).

Here’s one that matches a point I made about the fact it’s easier to crack games that are NOT on Steam (because Steam forces you to verify your code every time in the background):

@Unknown said:
Just registered to say that you are literally forcing the people to download a cracked version of the game that bypasses all the W10 nonsense. Even people with W10, many of us have simply disabled everything that has to do with the store, cloud, xbox live etc. With powershell MOD EDIT -

This in order to stop all the spying, telemetry settings, useless RAM usage and in general making your system far more stable.

Disappointing. You were better off via steam. Honestly how can one even say “xbox live goodness” in one sentence is beyond me.

Time didn’t change this general opinion. Posted after my initial reply to the thread yesterday:

@SlackLion105130 said:
Sorry I wont be buying it now, bring it to steam or loose most people’s interest, its an ultimatum.

In closing, I have been part of a particular beta before. I won’t say which one it is, but it’s the reason I have certain badges in my badge list. It’s the reason I can’t even give a review for the game. And the game itself? Per NDA requirements, I will not say. But I will tell you that the dev team pretty much ignored the beta team. The result was a game that, outside of the beta team, obtained mostly negative reviews. In fact, at this exact moment, the reviews from recent players are mostly negative. At one point, it was overwhelmingly negative. I’m therefore warning Microsoft: do not ignore the wishes of the community. It will lead to nothing but bad things. Trust me when I say this.

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MS are pushing for the windows 10 gaming platform to expand. Personally I’m not bothered if they allow it on steam or not. It would be good as it means more people on multiplayer. (seeing as windows 10 only games have very low player counts)

However basing buying a game because its on steam or not is pointless… There was time before steam where games could be installed and played without having to go through another platform.

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My view on this is that Microsoft doesn’t care about AoE, they care about the Windows Store. They hope that AoE:DE would attract some people to at least try out the Store and to hopefully continue using it. If they released the game also in Steam, all the Steam users would just buy the game there. I’m sure Microsoft knows they would get a lot more sales for the game by releasing it on Steam, but they mainly care about getting more users to their store.

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@“Sky Maniac” said:
MS are pushing for the windows 10 gaming platform to expand. Personally I’m not bothered if they allow it on steam or not. It would be good as it means more people on multiplayer. (seeing as windows 10 only games have very low player counts)

However basing buying a game because its on steam or not is pointless… There was time before steam where games could be installed and played without having to go through another platform.

I’m all fine with trying to expand a new platform. But taking a game whose younger siblings are all already on Steam and not putting it on Steam is not the way to do it.

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The most effective way you can protest is with your wallet. If you really care that much, then don’t buy the game - personally, I don’t really care, so I will be buying it. I’m also fairly sure I know which game you’re talking about. “do not ignore the wishes of the community. It will lead to nothing but bad things. Trust me when I say this”. You can threaten MS all you want, but actions speak louder than words - just don’t buy the game. See if that makes a difference. Sure, it is a slight annoyance that we’re forced to use Win10 and the Windows Store, but I really see nothing wrong with MS pushing their own platform over Valve’s - it makes more sense, from a business standpoint. If it indeed leads to them missing out on potential customers, that’s on MS. Their game, their choice. Do what you will.

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Sorry for what might be a double post here, I can’t edit posts for some reason.

@qweytr24 said:
My view on this is that Microsoft doesn’t care about AoE, they care about the Windows Store. They hope that AoE:DE would attract some people to at least try out the Store and to hopefully continue using it. If they released the game also in Steam, all the Steam users would just buy the game there. I’m sure Microsoft knows they would get a lot more sales for the game by releasing it on Steam, but they mainly care about getting more users to their store.

Something that comes to my mind is that, as far as I’m aware, Windows 10 is free. So they are trying to encourage more people to use their platform and thus be able to get their games. The other difficulty is that there are people who HATE Windows. This means Mac, Linux, and many more. They were probably already never going to see the game, but blocking out Windows 7? Windows 8 and 8.1? The game needs to be compatible for the biggest group of users possible. You are correct, they don’t care about AOE, they only care about their own interests. And when a developer only cares about their own interests, they are not a developer one should be supporting. They need to listen to their community before they get the support from said community.

Note this is not necessarily a personal opinion, but a phrasing of what could very well be a general community opinion not just here, but anywhere.

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@CycloneGU said:

@“Sky Maniac” said:
MS are pushing for the windows 10 gaming platform to expand. Personally I’m not bothered if they allow it on steam or not. It would be good as it means more people on multiplayer. (seeing as windows 10 only games have very low player counts)

However basing buying a game because its on steam or not is pointless… There was time before steam where games could be installed and played without having to go through another platform.

I’m all fine with trying to expand a new platform. But taking a game whose younger siblings are all already on Steam and not putting it on Steam is not the way to do it.

well in a way it is the way to do it.
Exclusives is what sells a lot of consoles, so why wont it work for Pc?

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Time is the most forgiving thing.
I’ve not seen Microsoft state: We are not launching on Steam ever.

This could just be a transitioning point for a few years.

Love Steam and have used it since it’s inception, hopefully Microsoft’s AOE DE team bring it across post release.

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@BorisStephens said:
Time is the most forgiving thing.
I’ve not seen Microsoft state: We are not launching on Steam ever.

This could just be a transitioning point for a few years.

Love Steam and have used it since it’s inception, hopefully Microsoft’s AOE DE team bring it across post release.

Agreed. I hope it’s a transitioning point, but it’s not the worst thing ever if it isn’t. Games exist outside of Steam, too.

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@BorisStephens said:
Time is the most forgiving thing.
I’ve not seen Microsoft state: We are not launching on Steam ever.

This could just be a transitioning point for a few years.

Love Steam and have used it since it’s inception, hopefully Microsoft’s AOE DE team bring it across post release.

There is one problem with that. All of the people playing on the Windows 10 only version will have potentially moved on by then because they are finding there aren’t that many players on the game, but many more on AOE II and AGE III. So they go back to those games and never touch AOE DE again. At that point, it would be too late to release it on another platform. They have to do it right away.

That said, I do know the Megaman Legacy Collection as an example. It showed up on the 3DS eShop February 23, 2016. It was available on Steam in August 2015. So games can be released on other platforms later, yes. And it’s why I’m not buying the second set when it comes out August 8. I’d rather have it on my handheld. As stated, wallets speak.

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Not really on topic but I do wonder something:

Why is it that every Xbox game can be found as a physical version, but if I want to buy say Halo Wars 2 physical version I can’t find it in a store ever.

I know there is a physical version of Halo Wars 2 I’ve just never seen a physical version of Halo Wars 2, Gears 4, Forza Horizon 3 or Killer Instinct for PC once.

Eventhough I can find physical Xbone copies for these games in every single store I enter.

My main concern is this: if Microsoft wants their games to sell on PC they should do as much as possible to get it in the hands of people:

  • Sell it through Microsoft Store
  • Sell it through Steam
  • Sell it through brick and mortar stores as a physical copy

Instead of just doing one thing, seeing if it does well, and call it a day.

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@Pykke said:
Not really on topic but I do wonder something:

Why is it that every Xbox game can be found as a physical version, but if I want to buy say Halo Wars 2 physical version I can’t find it in a store ever.

I know there is a physical version of Halo Wars 2 I’ve just never seen a physical version of Halo Wars 2, Gears 4, Forza Horizon 3 or Killer Instinct for PC once.

Eventhough I can find physical Xbone copies for these games in every single store I enter.

My main concern is this: if Microsoft wants their games to sell on PC they should do as much as possible to get it in the hands of people:

  • Sell it through Microsoft Store
  • Sell it through Steam
  • Sell it through brick and mortar stores as a physical copy

Instead of just doing one thing, seeing if it does well, and call it a day.

I think it’s because all the games you just mentioned are part of the “play anywhere” feature - which I may be wrong but I believe physical versions dont give you the feature.

Even though AoE: DE is not part of the “play anywhere” I think MS dont want to do physical PC versions anymore and like several people have mentioned they want you to use the MS store…

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@Pykke said:
Not really on topic but I do wonder something:

Why is it that every Xbox game can be found as a physical version, but if I want to buy say Halo Wars 2 physical version I can’t find it in a store ever.

I know there is a physical version of Halo Wars 2 I’ve just never seen a physical version of Halo Wars 2, Gears 4, Forza Horizon 3 or Killer Instinct for PC once.

Eventhough I can find physical Xbone copies for these games in every single store I enter.

My main concern is this: if Microsoft wants their games to sell on PC they should do as much as possible to get it in the hands of people:

  • Sell it through Microsoft Store
  • Sell it through Steam
  • Sell it through brick and mortar stores as a physical copy

Instead of just doing one thing, seeing if it does well, and call it a day.

Exactly! This is why Nintendo games do well; there is ample supply of most games in stores, and it’s easy to find at least the popular titles, but they can also be downloaded for those who prefer to do that. There are the rarer exceptions (I had to buy a used Pikmin 3 disc, which turned out to be a bad decision because the game later got a “big seller” re-release at a lower price point; hence why the other was out of production), but they don’t forget to put at least one copy of even older games in stores most of the time. I still see popular Wii games, and that system is from 5 years ago when it was at the end of its life. We won’t talk about the horrid decisions on their amiibos line, however…I still can’t get my missing ones…

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How can blizzard games be so successful without being on steam?

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@Zsombro said:
How can blizzard games be so successful without being on steam?

I think Warcraft existed before Steam. That said, it’s a good question whether it would have been successful without Steam in this day and age of computer gaming. However, my concern is also a concern of logic; the entire series is on Steam, we already have friends on Steam, don’t make us start over on a platform that this game does not need to be on.

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@CycloneGU said:

@Zsombro said:
How can blizzard games be so successful without being on steam?

I think Warcraft existed before Steam. That said, it’s a good question whether it would have been successful without Steam in this day and age of computer gaming. However, my concern is also a concern of logic; the entire series is on Steam, we already have friends on Steam, don’t make us start over on a platform that this game does not need to be on.

I don’t care where they sell the game. Just telling for the best. Let this be a friendly discussion.

But
If you would play with your steam friends who you know, then why would it be hard to tell each other your gamer tags and find them on xbox live?

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Yes WinStore/Win10 will hurt the game and community, no doubt. Hopefully not too much. But honestly you can’t fault Microsoft for wanting to put their own game on their own platform. I would have done the same in their position. As mentioned earlier noone is blaming Blizzard for doing exactly the same thing.

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Microsoft has to pay Steam a cut of the sale for selling on the Steam platform. Microsoft makes more profit by selling on their own platform, the Windows Store.

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@“Sky Maniac” said:
MS are pushing for the windows 10 gaming platform to expand. Personally I’m not bothered if they allow it on steam or not. It would be good as it means more people on multiplayer. (seeing as windows 10 only games have very low player counts)

However basing buying a game because its on steam or not is pointless… There was time before steam where games could be installed and played without having to go through another platform.

And basing on if its M$ store only? I would buy it on steam, retail etc but not trough something from M$, too many bad experiences with GFWL.

@rhrmn said:
Microsoft has to pay Steam a cut of the sale for selling on the Steam platform. Microsoft makes more profit by selling on their own platform, the Windows Store.

And they can control reviews and criticism, modding (lack of) etc.

@rhrmn said:
Microsoft has to pay Steam a cut of the sale for selling on the Steam platform. Microsoft makes more profit by selling on their own platform, the Windows Store.

And they can control reviews and criticism.> @“Sky Maniac” said:

@CycloneGU said:

@“Sky Maniac” said:
MS are pushing for the windows 10 gaming platform to expand. Personally I’m not bothered if they allow it on steam or not. It would be good as it means more people on multiplayer. (seeing as windows 10 only games have very low player counts)

However basing buying a game because its on steam or not is pointless… There was time before steam where games could be installed and played without having to go through another platform.

I’m all fine with trying to expand a new platform. But taking a game whose younger siblings are all already on Steam and not putting it on Steam is not the way to do it.

well in a way it is the way to do it.
Exclusives is what sells a lot of consoles, so why wont it work for Pc?

Because pc gamers are a different breed, something M$ still fails to understand.
If pc gamers dont like it they get cracked versions beating the exclusiveness.

@rhrmn said:
Microsoft has to pay Steam a cut of the sale for selling on the Steam platform. Microsoft makes more profit by selling on their own platform, the Windows Store.

And they can control reviews and criticism.> @“Sky Maniac” said:

@CycloneGU said:

@“Sky Maniac” said:
MS are pushing for the windows 10 gaming platform to expand. Personally I’m not bothered if they allow it on steam or not. It would be good as it means more people on multiplayer. (seeing as windows 10 only games have very low player counts)

However basing buying a game because its on steam or not is pointless… There was time before steam where games could be installed and played without having to go through another platform.

I’m all fine with trying to expand a new platform. But taking a game whose younger siblings are all already on Steam and not putting it on Steam is not the way to do it.

well in a way it is the way to do it.
Exclusives is what sells a lot of consoles, so why wont it work for Pc?

Because pc gamers are a different breed, something M$ still fails to understand.
If pc gamers dont like it they get cracked versions beating the exclusiveness.> @GepardenKalle said:

Yes WinStore/Win10 will hurt the game and community, no doubt. Hopefully not too much. But honestly you can’t fault Microsoft for wanting to put their own game on their own platform. I would have done the same in their position. As mentioned earlier noone is blaming Blizzard for doing exactly the same thing.

You can for them forcing players on barely working inferior platforms, like GFWL was and I have no reason tot hink different with the windows store since it is still far from an acceptable platform. M$ also has a very poor trackrecord on support for both their pc platforms and the series we are talking about.

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@smitske said:
You can for them forcing players on barely working inferior platforms, like GFWL was and I have no reason tot hink different with the windows store since it is still far from an acceptable platform. M$ also has a very poor trackrecord on support for both their pc platforms and the series we are talking about.

Then criticise the usability of their platform or their support of it. Don’t criticise their choice to use their own platform for their own games. That’s silly and frankly unfair.