Black Forest Lake Imbalance

:arrow_forward: GAME INFORMATION

  • GAME BUILD #: 0

:arrow_forward: ISSUE EXPERIENCED

The Black Forest map gen can sometimes produces a different number of lakes for each time (example, one team gets 4 and the other team gets 0).

:arrow_forward: FREQUENCY OF ISSUE

Not sure maybe 25% of the time / matches I play (SOMETIMES)

:arrow_forward: REPRODUCTION STEPS

Here’s the steps to reproduce the issue:

  1. Play RM 4v4 and select Black Forest as the map
  2. Check how many lakes each team receives

:arrow_forward: EXPECTED RESULT

Even number of lakes for each team

:arrow_forward: IMAGE


I’ve seen this as well. I’m not sure how often these small lakes pay for themselves. Being able to create fishing ships during Dark/Feudal can increase production rates beyond just a single town center. However, the lack of deep sea fish and the limited shore fish, coupled with the inability to task fishing ships to building and mining (unlike villagers) suggests little advantage to having a tiny lake. Malay, Persians, and Celts (cheap wood) may benefit.

Surprisingly, they are very beneficial.

It has always been that way, the game is not StarCraft.

Since reading your comment, I’ve practiced a couple of variations (against the AI). Best case, I’m only getting an extra 75 resources by Castle Age with a little over 200 food remaining in the pond.

I’m playing:

  • As the pocket, so no walling
  • 24+2 villager fast castle (Feudal 11:05ish, Castle 14:52ish) with enough resources to make 2 more TCs
  • Pond is nearby (10 tiles) with 4 shore fish. 1 is fished by villager and three by ships

Usually the pond is not so nearby and sometimes only has three shore fish. So, the map I practiced on is ideal.

What would be your recommended build order to make the ponds very beneficial? Or does the benefit really come after reaching Castle Age?

Doesn’t mean it should be that way or will always be that way. Easy to change.

There should be some rng, but it should be relatively even. Doesn’t make sense to give one team all the gold piles for example, nor does it makes sense to give one team all the ponds.

6 on food
4 on wood
usual house / boar
instead of milling the berries, create a dock with one vil. As you get the wood, build 3-4 fishing ship for the shore fish.
When you have some extra wood, finally mill the berries

You will have a lot of extra food in feudal and castle age, in comparison to someone without a dock. If you think about it, you have continuous vil production, but now also 3-4 extra fishing ships (which is like having 3 extra farming vils). They quickly pay for themselves.

In castle age, your shore fish will start running out and you can put fish traps when you start floating wood.

I partially agree on this. But what happens is, that the maps will be less random. If you compare the AOC versions of arabia, nomad and scandinavia with the DE versions, you will see that the later have much less randomness.

If you play arabia and have your berries and gold 6 tiles away from the TC, 3 thick woodlines and deer close to the TC, it’s risky to not go FC. Because even without scouting, you will know that your enemy will have the same.

At least I would not consider this to be a bug.

As you point out, with that build order, there isn’t enough wood to build the first fishing ship immediately. Same with the second fishing ship. A 6 food, 5 wood, 1 house->dock, 1 boar, 1 wood (then back to usual) build order allows continuous ship production and castle age at 15 min.

Given my modified build order, the first fishing ship appears at 6:00 (followed every 40 seconds by the next ships), the shore fish complete around 18:00, 18:40, 19:20 respectively. (200 food / 0.28 gather rate = about 12 minutes). For an early wood investment of 150 (dock) + 75x3 (ships) + 25 (house) = 400 I receive 600 food from mid 6 min through mid 19 min. It’s slightly better if you have four shore fish and a villager fishing one of them. Also, as you point out, you can then switch to fish traps.

In summary, due to the early wood cost, the food profit from the fishing ships is less than 100 resources if you reach Castle Age by minute 15. Spawning two additional TCs at that point reduces the rarity of villagers and thus reduces the value of three fishing ships gathering independently.

The point being, the map imbalance (you rightfully point out) is not significant for a booming pocket player. Yet, in practice, the time and resources spent on walling means Castle Age comes later for most players, and then the fishing ship profit (and fish trap kickoff) will have time to pay back in a meaningful way.