And yet one might even argue a mounted archer as a viable addition for Tlaxcala so that’s 7 units
At best it could be a blacksmith that can attack lightly with a dart
What asset do you want for a mesomarican DLC ?
Here my whishlist :
Unit
A chichimec warrior with a coyote skin (see here)
Mayan nest of wasp thrower : Maybe an UU but can be good scenario editor unit.
Animals
Puma (aggressive animal)
Coyote (gold animal)
Ocelot (gold animal)
Eagle brown (flying bird)
Quetzal (flying bird)
Also if the Chichimeca are to be added this two animals come from northern Mexico.
Bison (aggressive huntable)
Pronghorn (huntalbe)
Flora
Prickly Pear Bushes. A type of berry bush. There is some of them in the Mediterranean biome of AoE4, beautiful but very inaccurate because in medieval era this plant come from Mexico.
Saguaro (tree)
Joshua tree (not native from Mexico but near the border of Mexico and they look nice)
Mining deposit
I propose two variation of gold, jade was a precious material and obsidian was used to make weapon. Also metallurgy come very late in this part the world.
Jade deposit
Obsidian deposit
Decoration
Agave
Cactus (there is already some of them, make a decoration)
Maize field : maybe as a reskin for the farm or as a decoration because this cereal was the main food here.Can also be a type of berry bush.
Eagle on top of a cactus and eating a snake
Volador (see here)
Monolith of Tlaloc (Pillar of Tlálocan)
Gods statue (so many gods here)
Stone pillar : the one of the actual monastery, cut them from the monastery
Buildings
Chinampa (aztec unique replacement for the fish trap)
El Castillo, Chichen Itza
Pyramid of Teotihuacan
Ruin of maya building : there is so many lost mayan city. Make ruin with a lot of vegetation inside.
Terrain
Volcanic terrain : because this region is prone to volcanic eruption, the Popcatepetl erupt frequently. Also there is many archeological sites of city destroyed by Volcano : Cuicuilco, Joya de Cerén. Also the Ilopango erupted in 535 and this was a big eruption.
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Seems a big thing for a civ that most call one of the worst naval civs
I like the idea of a Toltec civ, although I don’t know that this is the best route for a UU. As hazy as Toltec history is, this is certainly embellished and probably unreliable even relative to that. As opposed to basing a unique unit off the Atlantean warriors which are far better evidenced historically, and could still be fairly unique. The Xochitl story is intriguing, but my preference would be to have it appear lightly as a few references or up to a whole level in a campaign, rather than having the civilization’s identity revolve around it.
Likewise “Owl warriors” as such are nowhere near well attested enough in any kind of consistent or major combat role like the eagle, coyote, or jaguar that I would want them as a regional unit, or even a unique unit except perhaps for a Teotihuacano civ. I know Mantis had a concept with them as a UU for the Zapotecs, which has subsequently influenced a lot of people, but AFAIK that was entirely based off the Teotihuacano individual called Spearthrower Owl. I do think at least some Meso civs should get slingers though. No reason they should be a South American unique, and the Tupi didn’t use them at all.
You forgot to attach Gigachad:
Hmmm, if only this Admirable Wallabee fellow had made a video showing what that looked like, or even a mod where people could try it out. But alas, I guess we’ll have to judge this intriguing fragment like any paper-only civilization build. Oh well, here’s an idea of how that might work out. Full house on the left, upgraded units only on the right:
Granted, the “ungarrison” button (if you had units garrisoned) is covered up by the hand cannoneer, but it still responds to the hotkey. It’s messy, but we can fit all the units and line upgrades, even silly ones like Genitours that no Mesoamerican civ should ever make. Hypothetically, if Averill Vindaloo wanted to rework this build in the future and clean things up, he might add a bonus like “Counter unit upgrades combined,” “Elite Skirmisher (and Elite Genitour/Team Unit) Free,” “Ranged Unit-line Upgrades available at the Blacksmith, ”etc, or move units like hand cannoneers that are not unlocked traditionally and don’t fit the native theme of “House of Darts” elsewhere, like the Castle. The biggest issue with this kind of thing by far is changing the hotkeys for some units.
Hypothetically, Avocado Voodoodoo might design it so that the Goth team bonus improves the research and training speed of infantry, and the Briton one improves it for ranged soldiers and techs, as with every civilization that doesn’t have combined buildings.
To each his own. I find it pretty obviously advantageous in terms of flexibility, the surprise factor, and early wood savings. Whether that’s worth the trouble is another question.
I think most people who are semi-familiar with Central Mexican history or language will find this statement silly. At the level of civilization, Tlaxcaltecs are a very closely related Aztec-split, with the main differences being political, and with massive overlap in terms of military organization and logistics, and obviously sharing the same language. Common structures like armories shared most of the same characteristics, and people would understand you if you asked to be shown the Tlacochcalli, even in the unlikely event they had a different preferred term. It’s true that the “Tlacochcalli” as such is known to us through the Aztecs, but that goes for a lot of central Mexican/Nahua institutions since that’s mostly who the conquistadors and chroniclers wrote about in any occasional level of detail (and they had bigger, fancier versions of everything). In the same way that a German-style armory would be recognizable as a “Zeughaus” in different German-speaking areas even if it entered a broader lexicon based on one particularly prominent or iconic Zeughaus.
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What I did find was that they used atl atls dipped in poison and practiced shamanism. Sounds like a good choice for a Skirmisher replacement that does less up front damage but deals DoT and does some monk things if you don’t mind your skirmishes costing gold and getting slaughtered by scouts
It’s basically a Warrior monk but if they wanted to be a skirmisher with baby’s first temu curare
It’s also I find sufficient enough to make the area feel regionlaized
As for Xochitl I didn’t say anything about Atlantis but I know in the twilight of the empire she was supposedly training some women for emergency combat roles
Not saying it’s completely made up, it just seems to fall into the category of fragmentary or apocryphal such that I don’t think it’s an amazing candidate for a regional unit. Owl motifs are common enough that you could use them as inspiration in a way that’s not provably “wrong”, but they don’t really appear in any kind of consistent way that is both institutional and martial AFAIK (especially outside of Teotihuacan). To me this would be kind of like making a “caiman warrior” or any other number of interesting critters based on (real) images of Maya warriors at Chichen Itza that wore those costumes in a way that surely carried some particular symbolism, but not in a way that can (yet) be mapped onto anything nearly as coherent as eagle or jaguar warriors.
That said, it’s your party, and if it fits the vision your have for your civs and design philosophy, you could do much worse. At the end of the day, creative people rarely agree on a common vision, so go with your own preference.
Also, the Toltec warriors have nothing to do with the myth of Atlantis, that’s just the name for that type of human-formed pillar figure. Since we know what they looked like, it would seem silly to me to not use this as the basis of a Toltec Unique Unit.
Welcome back, Admiral Wololo! Feels good to have you in the forums again. It felt kinda weird that everyone talked about you like any other YouTuber, not someone we knew…
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Well, thank you. I don’t know that I’ll stay “back” in any extended, participative role, as time, bandwidth and inclination are scarcer than in the days of yore, but I like to check in sometimes, and occasionally try to be an avocado for a few of the good things I see here that don’t otherwise break containment. Despite the often silliness, there’s plenty of good thought here. And every once in a blue moon, when like tonight, the repose is insufficient and the stimulation excessive, one must indulge in a bit of good old-fashioned balderdash.
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Thank you for showing my username in your saxon video 
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It looks good; in AoM and AoE 3 they look like this…in a row with all the available units…
I confess I had forgotten that the Affable Wolverine actually makes mods of his civs designs, despite this being a key feature setting him apart from other civ crafters.
So this civ doesn’t get thumb ring, arson, squires or gambesons? (Apologies, I’m sure I could answer this by watching the video or trying the mod. Feel free to ignore and I might do that at some point.)
I understand the benefits; this is purely a matter of taste. I’m a sucker for consistency and simplicity, qualities the original AoE2 had a high degree of; DE, not so much anymore. To me, the appeal of Tlaxcaltecs is that one can design a civ that is tangibly different from Aztecs and Maya (by virtue of having cavalry and gunpowder units) without deviating from the civ design format of AoK/The Conquerors. Thus any deviation from that format makes them less appealing to me.
Ah, but you see, unlike Avogadro’s Wooloo, I’m not semi-familiar with Central Mexican history or language; I’m just a guy who googled* “Tlaxcala house of darts” and found the sentence “Tlacochcalco (“in the house of darts”) was the name of four armories placed at the four entries to the ceremonial precinct of the Aztec capital Tenochtitlan”!
*I actually used DuckDuckGo, but it seemed incongruous and potentially confusing to make a verb of it. DuckDuckGoed? DuckDuckWent?
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There’s also the issue of does it count as both a dark and Feudal building or are you absolutely forced to get an early market when it might just be a waste of resources and poorly positioned for the eventual team trading path. Sure you now save on an archery range but still. I’d rather almost be forced to need a range just so the game encourages me to diversify OR make my enemy wonder if my Aztec army is gonna be bows or eagles
This is almost why I wish house of darts was either a blacksmith or military building that could… throw darts. But unlike other ranged buildings maybe the dart is strong albeit Arambai flavored in its accuracy
Understandable, given that the design aspect in question was brought up as a fragmentary second-hand reference in someone else’s concept thread. Regrettably, Arboreal Weeaboo’s Tlaxcaltecs mod is currently obsolete, as mod stability in DE is low, with data mods regularly breaking after official updates. Although after the dust settles on the upcoming DLC that will likely be dealt with.
It seems that Augural Wagadu’s concept had Gambesons as well as the now-obsolete technology Supplies, although admittedly enabled by not bothering to leave room for the Genitour. Which one might understand per the stated intention of prioritizing fun experimental design over perfect conformity to official standards where the ROI for doing so would be negligible, as most people trying the mod would not likely miss the absence of a team unit that Meso civs would rarely, if ever, consider training. I reinserted the genitour here for sake of completeness, to show how you could fit all relevant units on the interface if you wanted to, without resorting to any of the space-saving bonuses mentioned, although it strikes me that since Tlaxcaltecs get stables, that’s a possible alternative location. The most conspicuous missing technology is squires, but if there is an American civilization that can take that hit, it’s one that can access cavalry, which turned out to be what the devs did with the Mapuche design a year and a half later. It strikes me that a combined barracks-range building is an even smoother fit for a South American civilization, given that they have one fewer unit line to fit in.
Fair enough, that’s a reasonable position, even if unlikely to be accommodated extensively by either fan-made or official civilization designs. Certainly there’s a tradeoff between simplicity and making designs feel exciting and different enough with extra features or new mechanics, although the bias almost always favors the side of novelty.
Not that I would expect everyone to be versed in such esoteric matters, but that, being the case, might constrain the scope of one’s statements.
I don’t think there’s a strong case for that since Tlaxcaltecs never developed a tradition of mounted archery, a different enough skillset that it’s not equivalent to foot archery plus access to horses. Their adoption of horses coincided with their adoption of Spanish weapons and maybe occasional native melee holdovers. The best case for a potential timeframe-appropriate American civ with cavalry archers would be the Chichimecs, although I don’t think they’re terribly likely to be added.
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So I watched the video… and it turned out I’d already watched it! Presumably quite a while ago.
True, but I think then their eagle warriors would need some compensation for their relative slowness, either via a bonus or unique tech – presumably extra armour or attack speed (since damage and hit points are already taken).
There’s no trade-off: simplicity is its own reward. If you can’t make a new civ different enough without making it overcomplicated, don’t add a new civ. Extra features and new mechanics are marketing tools, not gameplay benefits. (Disclaimer: these are opinions, not facts.)
Tell that to the author of the Wikipedia article I quoted.
Including cavalry with any American civ is probably somewhat timeframe inappropriate, though I suspect no more (and perhaps less) of a stretch than turtle ships. Tlaxcaltecs seem the best option for it to me, but you probably know better.
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So with the only new regional unit being the Owl who is a Skirmisher who wants to pretend to be a poison deliverer and a priest, the Mesos are fine however there is one piece of technology that feels right to make regional tech: Tumpline
no i never misspelled it as Trumpline and never once was planning to make a joke about the irony of this being something Mexican civs need to pay for. It’s an indigenous strap used to carry heavy loads. So this upgrade to Hand Cart in the Imperial Age could be good. However… Heavy Plow makes things awkward. Since heavy plow is a direct +1 a second Hand Cart means if you research this before Plow you are denying your farmers +1 carry which doesn’t seem like much but that +1 carry technically translates into a faster workrate as the farmer travels around the farm less often because it’s based on workload. For Aztecs I’m guessing the civ has some sort of hidden tech that if Heavy Plow is researched first or second the game will not let you carry less? Does it? According to my math if you get Heavy Plow before Wheelbarrow you get to 14 food then with wheelbarrow you get 18 instead of going from 13 to 16 then 17
It’s a simple tech that does something you already know although it probably comes too late to be as shiny and cool as other regional techs since imperial is when you might start deleting excess workers.
So let’s put it all together for our first civ:
Toltecs: A defensive and counter unit civ
- Owls +2/3/4 damage vs archers (except skirmishers)
- Town Center non Age up techs cost and research time reduced by 80%
- Start +50s/50w
Team Bonus: non towncenter dropsites and farm/pastures build 3x faster
UU: Xochitlite - Desperate loyalists during the end of the era these women were trained by Queen Xochitl herself to serve as a last ditch against the Mayans and the other civs in the Mayapan alliance. They weren’t well trained so they lost.
These archers cost half pop but unlike Blackwoods do only 2 [3] base damage but do have a range of 6. Their best attribute is that which they counter: they do bonus damage vs shock, siege and skirmisher armor types. If you aren’t fighting these you might as well not use these ladies.
UT1: Tortilla - If Grand Trunk Road was food specific you would have this. Toltcs probably weren’t the first to make Corn or flour based carry cases for their rations but a source or two I remember from over a decade ago did mention this civ using it.
But frankly simply just being 15% Grand Trunk for food isn’t great because you at this point have hopefully exhausted your non farm food so it really would only help for farms and fish if any is still out in the wild or in your traps. So as a bonus every time you buy food at the market you get 15% extra food and every time you sell food at the market you get to keep 15% of it.
UT2: Obsidian Edge - Essentially an extra bracer and Blast Furnace. Sounds busted, however Holks, Owls, Spears and Xochitlites are excluded.
The idea is that for a long time the Toltecs just had better weapons than all their non Purepecha enemies who had metal instead of Obsidian. It’s probably too good as it is mind you.
Regionals: Owl, Eagle, Slinger, Tumpline, Catapult Galleon
Missing Techs:
- Barracks: Elite Eagle Warrior
- Archery Range: Cav Archer, possibly Thumb Ring, Parthian tactics, Cannon
- Stable: Yup
- Siege Workshop: Siege Ram, Bombard
- University: Bombard, Carvel Hull, Siege Engineers, Chemistry??
- Dock: Gillnets, Heavy Demo Ship, Cannon
- Economy: Two Man Saw, possibly Guilds
- Castle: /
- Monastery: Faith, Theocracy, Redemption, Herbal Medicine
- Blacksmith: Cavalry armor
So the basic gist is that your army looks damn good… like really really really good… but the Toltecs fell out of power before the rise of the Eagle so they just don’t get its elite form. It’s kinda a shame because in Castle Age their strong almost Viking Town Center tech start (which also lets you save 40g and 20 seconds on Loom) is good for keeping enemies at bay and getting your eco going fast.
You can easily go for Castle Age Eagle play if you don’t mind the fact that it is going to fall out of use soon. So like a Celt going for dead end crossbows it’s a choice you know is coming. The extra stone means you can get some tower aggression super early which goes great when you pair it with archer slicing owls. Owls normally do less up front bonus damage than skirms vs archers but this closes that gap and even edges it out. Deterring your enemy from using bowmen is not a small task because it means you can then use your Eagle Scouts or M@A to exert pressure without any real counter units.
then you lose most of your raiding potential because you don’t have elite eagles. That -.15 movespeed is significant!
It’s only with hope that Obsidian Efge really gives you the edge to fight well but again things that eagles are meant to counter you need a frail 25 HP archer that folds to anything that it doesn’t counter.
The Xochitlite admittedly is good at filling the gap and in fact it might inadvertently be a good stopper to civs like Koreans and Vietnamese who also are encouraged to go shock siege and archers which you can add some owls to slice through.
But be sure you know what to use it for! Even still full champ and Halb also help round out the rest of your problems and in many cases you probably need some Halbs because yes Scout units with their anti-priest will 2 or three shot owls!
The Toltec design asks the question: can you do Meso things when the tech tree shows a red x on l Elite Eagle Warriors?
Campaign: Xochitl - The empire in strife. Civil war is breaking out and your Mayan enemies fresh on a recovery from a disappearance some decades before are going to try and end you flat in the city of Tula. Take their reigns of this almost mythological empress who is real and save the Toltecs so they can possibly go on for another 200 years even if it costs her life.
Wonder: Terracota Warrior(s) what’s better than one Warrior statue? A whole buncha them!!!
I’m gonna be real. Some of the civs I picked are because of the unique tech tree or mechanics they could have.
For instance I read of how peasant militias amongst the Zapotecs were armed with slings. While I don’t want to go all Flemish Revolution, the idea of a swap mechanic gained between slinger and villager could work as a TB
Of course as strong as this sounds to just train a bunch of slingers and turn them into villagers, the issue comes up by the fact that if this is an expensive late game tech then it probably at best is used so when you don’t need a massive overwhelming number of villagers it’s best use is to make them slingers instead of delete key.
And to stop you from just spamming archeries and slingers and making them go into your foes base and then make a castle, there would be a timer first when the unit is created and every time it swaps forms.
But wait villagers have more HP after loom! And before it they don’t have the same.
A simple fix: civ bonus villagers +5/10 HP in dark/Castle Age
And the Peasantry Slinger tech does a few things: fire it removes slinger wood cost, then it gives them +15 HP if loom is researched, and finally it unlocks the swap mechanic that way both have the same HP stat the same cost etc.l
Speaking of Zapotecs…
A Siege and Archer civ
- Heavy Scorpion available one age sooner at half price
- Owls Slings and Eagles move 2/5/7/10% faster
- Berries and deer last 40% longer
- Vills +5/10 HP in Dark/Castle Age
Team Bonus: Mangonel and clone projectiles reach destination 40% faster
UU: Lightning Warrior - As fast as their lightning namesake, their best use is fighting tanky beefy units who now get the new “hefty” armor tag. In addition these heavy units do less damage to them.
A short list of heavy units: Militia line, Knight, Teut Knight, Steppe Lancer, Jaguar War, Cataphract, Iron Pagoda, Battle Elephant, Ballista Elephant, War Wagon, Rocket Cart, Hussite Wagon, Tiger Cav, Hue Guang, Jarl, Varangian Guard, Huskarl, Keshik, Ratha, Rams, Siege Elephant, Mounted Crossbow, Kona, Temple Guard, Champi (stipulation that this unit has some built in heavy armor), Sergent, both Konniks, Jian while shielded only, Fire Lancers, Liao Dao, Conquistador
Definitely excluded: Woad Raiders are saved by nudity. Cav Archer despite having HEAVY upgrade. Same for any unit that gets a HEAVY upgrade, Eagles, Ele archers, other siege weapons
Im almost certain I’m forgetting something but basically every civ almost has a unit that is a hefty threat and units that are NOT! This unit hits fast but their damage vs non hefty units is not as strong as lightning.
UT1: Sapote - Eagles essentially lose their shock armor.
UT2: Peasant Slinger Uprising - Removes the wood cost from slingers and gives them 15 HP if Loom was researched. In addition, Slingers and villagers can swap between one another although there is a 30 second cooldown after training and a 15 second cooldown for every other instance of shift in and out.
Regionals: Eagle, Owl, Catapult Galleon, Slinger, Tumpline
Missing Techs:
- Barracks: Champion
- Archery Range: Cav Archer, Parthian tactics, Cannon, Arbalest
- Stable: Yup
- Siege Workshop: Bombard
- University: Bombard, Chemistry, Dry Dock
- Dock: Fast Fire, Heavy Demo Ship, Cannon
- Economy: Crop Rotation
- Castle: /
- Monastery: /
- Blacksmith: Cavalry armor, Blast Furnace
Gotta be real: Wanted to take away Bracer instead of Blast Furnace but chemistry is a better and fairer loss. These are eagles who are zipping along at a speed of 1.573 which is what old Inca bonus did but this is free and includes Owls. By the way Zapotecs and Aztecs can upgrade their owls one more time in Imperial compared to the other civs nearby.
So you have strong Eagles but even without shock armor, head to head most infantry will cost effectively win. 70 HP, 2 armor and 14 base damage are more than 60 HP, 9 dmg and 0 base armor. I’m just saying.
The real trick is knowing when to abuse the Slinger uprising! This tech is vital. You can spawn a bunch of slings use them to clear out a siege then swap to villager and castle in your enemy’s face. For all their power however this civ lacks Chemistry. Not that your siege rams mind. In castle age you are a bane to archers with possible early heavy scorpion which might be too much. A line of scorps defended by pikes is just hard to beat, maybe too hard?
The big concern is the power spike of early Heavy Scorpion is terrifying although it loses its strength oomph if you can’t capitalize on it. That combined with mangonels whose projectiles travel at 4.9 speed instead of 3.5 and you have a possibility oppressive civ that just discourages most units from being used in general especially archery
Combined with Shock damage immune Eagles and slingers on the fly and you might have something a tad too good. Not to mention incredible highly upgraded Owls.
The hope is lacking Champs and Arbs and Chemistry means you still fear enemy infantry armies
Oh no, please not more south american eagle warriors