80% of the civ can be deleted if you want to play Michi. This is why I ban michi and resign on michi right away
Yesss letâs make them worse vs other BBCs against buildingsâŠ
If Bohemians truly need another nerf on closed maps, just remove Siege Engineers and buff Elite Hussite Wagon range by 1 to offset the nerf so Houfnice will have less range vs other BBCs and that gives other civs with BBC and Siege Engineers to have a fair and adjusted battle, also makes Wagenburg Tactics more relevant for Houfnices.
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Thatâs not true. But also, Im talking about black forest.
The problem with the unit is how good it is vs everything. Either make it good against units and weak against buildings. Or give it some other form of weakness. As is, you literally cannot do anything against them as a lot of civs.
normally when i upgrade an unit i expect that unit to keep his role not a complete different one. Beside i think houfnice got enough nerfs already. At this rate letâs just nerf bbc line entirely if you are going at it.
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Obviously not, because you still canât counter them when a mass of them are supported by halbs with anything resembling equal resources. Youâll need like 3 times the expense to counter them, which is ridiculous. Watch viper vs tatoh, the unit is stupidly broken even on 1v1s.
The unit is meant to be the late-game power house of a unit. You can absolutely still counter them with your own bombard cannons, but itâll be a tougher battle for you to micro. If youâre Turks, Ethiopians, and even Portuguese - itâll be more even. You can use monks to convert them - if Bohemians can field fully upgraded Monks, Houfnice, Halberdiers and whatnot else, then youâve let the game run out peacefully for an hour or so. What were you doing in the meantime?
In similar vein, are we going to nerf Mongols and Celts as well, because they can be similarly just as unbearable on Black Forest, especially when they boom?
If Bohemians are only making Halberdiers, you can clear it with Infantry btw. Itâll work only once as then Bohemians will do Archery Ranges, but if youâre in a situation where theyâre attacking very early they will likely not be able to afford it, or you can clear it with Monks for the same reason. You should only let them boom if youâre confident your own civ comp can beat Bohemians + whatever their ally is. If it canât, you really donât want to let it get to that point.
The unit is reasonably balanced considering itâs an upgrade to the most expensive unit in the game. Its power reflects that.
Also, something to consider is that Bohemians army even with Wagenburg tactics is slow. You can cut and raid their base, and they can hardly defend it there especially if production is far away (and if itâs not, then they canât reinforce their army at front). You can just throw Hussars at it and just snipe the Houfnice, attack from multiple angles. Yes, the Halbs will eat your Hussar, but youâre lowering the number of Houfnice which are far harder to mass. Bonus if your team has Italians, or some really fast Cavalry that might have bonus vs Siege (Magyar Huszar, Winged Hussar, Lancers are great too!), one mistake from the Bohemian player and itâs all gone.
You can go aggressive before Castle Age too, by the way. A lot of BF games get very aggressive from even Dark Age, from laming to obnoxious trushes and so on.
I actually had this idea, where you basically remove the spear line bonus, and give it to the Hussite wagon, similarly to how the centurion works, it would be something similar:
- Spear line bonus removed.
- Hussite wagon recent changes reverted, but now it shoots all 3 projectiles at the same time.
- Hussite wagons now also slowly heals foot units in a 5 tiles radius and increase the bonus damage dealt by spear unit by 15% (25% for the elite).
This would nerf them a little overall while also improving the HW which desperately needs a buff.
Another solution would be to break up the mining tech discount, giving them only the gold upgrades and not the stone upgrades, or the other way around. Maybe the other 2 tech could go to another civs who needs them more.
But the main problem will still be houfnice⊠itâs incredible in my opinion how the bohemians still have SE⊠just give the houfnice more bonus damage against the buildings so they donât lose but also lose that +1 range.
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This is a really neat idea. This allows you to leave them in place while they do their job, just like they are supposed to. The centurion mechanics are normalized a bit, which is nice.
But as you said, it still doesnât deal with houfnices. I am alright with giving bohemians considerable buffs, except nerf houfnice. Allow other civs to have good, viable counters.
No, but they are similarly the top 3 BF civs alongside Bohemians, arguably considered even better. Their siege play is so âunbearablyâ strong (and Mongols have several options even).
I replied to the thread not you, you chose to reply and quote me. You are not a moderator nor get to moderate where someone posts. If you do not want to see what I write, you can block me. Discourse should hide my posts from you and you have to manually click on them to see them. You donât get to spam threads and expect to ban other members of the forum from posting in them, or create your own echo chamber that youâll later use as âsee, the majority of people agree with me!â arguments.
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Except, this is my thread. In that way, you are actually replying to me. If you want, reply to specific people on my threads, thatâs fine. But you are actually talking to me here.
My threads are eco chambers? That has to be the funniest thing youâve said in a while. Go and visit my last 3 threads before saying something ridiculous like that.
Again, if you want to say something on my threads, fine. But reply to specific people, not to me.
Why it is not true ? On Michi, only Spanish, Siege , Elephant civ should be picked. Timing is not important because people wall behind tree.
On BF, Bohemians are pocket or flank ? As flank, they canât break tree early and fast. As pocket, they donât have the mobility to raid or anti raid. In late game, their deathball isnât unstoppable, several UUs can beat them.
You said 80% are unusable. That means only like 10 civs are good.
In practice, i would say that only maybe 10 civs are unusable.
Those are civs which do not get BBC, Elephants, good Paladins, and Siege Onagers.
That means chinese, Japanese, Aztecs (although they do get SO), mayans, Magyars and Vikings. Every civ other than these can be used in one way or another. Tell me the civ, Iâll tell you how.
My favourite are tartars. They seem kinda silly, till you realize how good flaming camels are against cavalry. Opponent goes elephants, Paladins, or SO? Just spam flaming camels. They are ridiculously strong.
Why do they need to raid? They have allies. Also, tell me, which UU works against halbs+Houfnice+HC, with monks for support.
Spanish, Turks Bohemians, Persians. Celts, Koreans, Mongols , Teutons, Saracens. I couldnât remember all of them but the ones without UT or siege engineer wonât work. Squishy Elephant wonât work either.
Bohemians canât raid so they canât win fast.
Opponents canât win face to face fight, they will hit somewhere else. Bohemians donât have quick answer either.
condottiero , cataphract, Mangudai , CA with UT and Parthian
Turks BBC and BBT got longer range , what if Turks hide BBC under BBT?
I donât know what to tell you, I disagree completely. I can show roughly 50% win rate with anything except for those civs I listed.
They can wipe your eco, and your trade line. Sure, you can move. However, your win condition at this point is for one of your allies to wipe one of your enemies. I donât think thatâs a good play style. What if allies of bohemians just wall all over the place? This is about timing. Once Bohemians have their deathballs, you wonât have enough time to get into their eco and raid. And, as I said, houfnice arenât that hard to get. Siege onagers cost way more in terms of tech. Bohemians have some great eco bonuses which help them get there quickly.
Condos are actually valid. They are pretty good, and will force bohemians back. Iâll remember that. Catas will just die hard to HC. Mangudai will die to houfnice. CA will die to houfnice and HC. Also, CA and mangudai canât get close because of halbs. Turks are an option, but a very tricky one.
Regardless, I think that at least half of the civs should be able to handle the bohemian comp, which isnât the case currently.
BTW , Sicilians take less bonus damage. They might have a chance too
When you have better options, why do you want to pick the ones without UT ? Better picks will give you higher win rate in general.
Bohemians can only push step by step. I will hit the other side if I canât win Bohemians , so thatâs a base trade.
Walling is a teamwork, I really havenât seen teamwall all over the tree on BF. Maybe it exists but itâs not common.
No, 1 Elite cataphracts can beat at least 2 HC.
No, houfnice canât 1 shot them. They can line up and trade well against Bohemian units. Mangudai might be able to snipe houfnice and melee unit canât stop them at all.
Talking about a specific civ on a specific map is pointless. Just like that only Portuguese can stop Vking on sea map
Are you seriously suggest to nerfing UU that is upgraded from generic one worse than before upgrade? Upgrade cost had become too expensive after some patch nerf of that unit even.
What are your stance of Turks artillery BBC then? Artillery is much cheaper than Houfnice. Also even donât need chemistry and arguably they are better than Houfnice is some aspect that more range means can outmicro any other BBC. Artillery cost was increased recently but their cost should be increased further.
Also Seige bonus damage of BBC and Houfnice should be reduced or removed altogether as suggested in other thread.
It really does not matter. Bohemians can research Chemistry in castle age so the timings are the same.
Turks BBC can beat Bohemians BBC with micro indeed, but Bohemians BBC can 1 shot archer and onager is too much. IMO, the 1 shot mechanic should be extremely limited , otherwise can you imagine that something can 1 shot paladin or 1 shot building ?
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No. They still have more HP, more damage, more pierce armour, and more spash damage. None of that changes.
I donât like it, but I donât think it is unbalanced. That is for a couple of reasons. One, turks donât get Halbs. Meaning, turks BBC are far more vulnerable to cavalry. Two, BBC have a much smaller splash radius. So, they arenât nearly as strong against units. Three, turk BBC donât have as much HP and pierce armour. Meaning, they are far more vulnerable to ranged units like archers. Four, turk BBC are slower than houfnice, which makes them easier to snipe with other BBC/ranged units.
This is also not mentioning that Turks donât have insane eco bonuses like bohemians, and donât have strong options like trash monks, extra strong halbs and extra fast HC. In fact, jannies are only slightly stronger than HCs by mid-late imperial age.
Turks are strong, sure. But they arenât broken/OP. They are fine as-is.
You canât do this with BBC. Archer civs have literally no other options for sniping Onagers and Siege onagers. This has to stay.
However, I might be willing to support a straight reduction in damage. Make it 20/30 damage, which ignores armour. This might require some rebalance, and testing to be certain though.
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On behalf of everyone else on this forum, pleaseâŠtry to air your personal grievances with other users in private.
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However, Turks can save resource to research chemistry and use it train more BBC or other army.
I beleive any other BBC also one-shot onager as well with bonus damage against seige. I also agree that is too much that need to be adjusted.
Against archer, Bohemian BBC have an edge for one-shot. But I think it is understandable that Bohemians lacking Fully upgrade Arb, Skirms and also lacking good cavalry in imp. So they need some strong seige to deal with archer.
That is true but actually they are still strong regardless. Turks can train their own Hussar which is one of the best and can snipe enemy BBC faster than enemy (Other good Hussar civ, such as Bulgarians Mongols Tatars lack BBC and Turks have Both strong Hussar and ###### ##### However, Bohemians lack Husssar and they can only play defensively for using Halb. Sniping enemy BBC with their own cavarly is not usually option here.
You probably forgot Turks also have default civ bonus for gunpowder HP. Also they have strong Hussar to deal with archer.
However, range is more important against ranged unit or enemy bombard cannon. 1 or 2 more range means you are more likely fire safely from under your castle or you are easily give a good shot to enemy with micro more closer to your defensive building.
Insane eco? Fervor and sancity in villager? That is more of bonus of villager survivability. You really think berbers also have insane eco?
Also Turks have stronger option in imp such as 100 HP Cavarly Archer, 7 PA hussar and even Seige Ram. It is rarely seen but also FU heavy camel. They have more flexibility than Bohemians.
However, Bohemians tech and bonus are all about Gunpowder. They are easily destroyed by just condottiero spam by Italians for example. However, Turks also can go HCA/ Seige Ram and donât really have problem against Italians in post imp.