Bonus to Teutons

Hi, I’m Olive cereal. You might remember me from toppics like “ideas to buff the vietnamesse” and “original buff to turks” (read with Troy mcclure voice)

To keep with my trend of proposing buffs to civs, I came with a particular idea for teutons, particularly Teutonic knights.

Teutons represent crusades, a highly religious people, and that’s reflected in their team bonus. But since they UU is literally a crusade, and they fought for relics, whynot give a bonus related to that?

I propose that, similar to Lithuanian bonus, Teutonic knights gain advantage of collecting relics. In real life their were an order fighting for the holy land, and each victory gave them more strength, convincing them that they were doing deus vault. So, I propose that Teutonic knights move 20% faster for each relic the player gets.

What do you think?

3 Likes

Interesting idea, but 20% is a lot. Like 5% would be more acceptable…

Btw I am not convinced that TK needs a buff. It is a heavy slow tank with good armour and great attack. It must have some weakness and that is its speed.

Instead I propose to focus on cavalry (husbandry?) or barracks infantry (armour/attack bonus?) :slight_smile:

I think they should get Husbandry, first because they’re designed to be an slow civ and second because, as someone said in other post, they knights/cav/pals have more resistance to conversion.
Both bonus you named for barracks are already taken (malians/burmese/bulgarians).

I think that TK is useless. It’s a great unit in paper, but in reality is too slow to be of any use. I think with a buff for them, teutons could be a much mlre versatil civ. Maybe 20 is too much, but again, 20% of really slow is still quite slow.

The initial speed of TK = 0.7
0.7 * (1 + 0.1 + 0.2 * 5 ) = 0.7 * 2.1= 1.47 !!!
Even the speed of Paladin with Husbandry is 1.485, 20% is such a bad idea. They would still be stronger than most of melee units and weaker than archers. No help to meta.

Almost every player go tower rush, sometimes go siege monk rush in the Arena, those make Teutons become boring and hard to use. Bombard Tower, weaker Paladin, Hand Cannoneer, Siege Onager,…, all the units Teutons can use are gold eaters.

Teutons is worth having healthy cavalry units, including adding Husbandry and Light Cavalry as well as Hussar. Basically, these will be enough to make the player feel better. Not only give a good reason to play the knight-line but also give a great help in the late game.

Then, its two unique tech are worth being discussing. The only useful effect is the +3 range castle ( actually +2 since Teutons has no Bracer). Infantry shooting is not practical now, and the +4 melee armor for siege is meaningless because nobody would put the siege weapons at the front without any units protecting them.

Maybe change Ironclad to another tech that make the speed of TK +30% faster. (0.7 * 1.4=0.98<0.9 * 1.1=0.99=Champion) And make Crenellations become that any garrisoned melee units can shoot arrows, not only infantry but also cavalry.

5 Likes

Okey, you did the math. I agree, 20% it’s to much. What about 10%? Up to 4 relics, like Lithuanians. Also, i ageee thwy should get at least light cav and they UT are really weak, and really situational.

It’s not they’re a bad civ, it’s jusr there’s something they’re missing

No.
TK could be faster but should not be faster than Champion.
+30% is already faster than Champion without Squires, such like Magyar, Portuguese and Khmer. You can compare them with other similar cases like War Elephant with Mahouts and Turtle Ship with Panokseon.

Why Lithuanians relic bonus is important and useful is buffing both of UU and the common units. Only speeding up TK is not an attractive “civ bonus” because it still need castles. However, it may be nice as an “unique tech” without relic. When you build a castle and prepare to train TK, it means you have a special requirement, then this tech would be attractive.

If Teuton must have something to do with relic, may be +1 infantry armor per relic or +8% training speed of military units on land per relic. Or, relic in Teuton monastery can generate not only gold but also food, wood and stone. Whatever.

Yeah, an UT could be another way. Anyway, ithink TK should be faster. I don’t think that "faster than a champion without squires "is too fast. It would be average fast foran unit. Yeah, still wouldbe a melee eater, but mosf infantry and all cavalry would be able to outrun them

Do all these proposals take into account deathmatch/closed maps? Because we are discussing the unit that can get attacked by 2 paladins at once and still win.

Not the Elite skirm, nor the Halberdier

Vikings can perform a knight rush, Ethiopian can, even Malay can if eles are too slow for you… If these have an use for their cav, trust me Teutons have many more. Add to that the conversion buff in DE and the resistance now looks more attractive than speed (at least vs monks. And you have siege for archers)

Welp, it’s true that infantry being as effective as basic archers (ie.less effective than villagers https://ageofempires.fandom.com/wiki/Castle_(Age_of_Empires_II)) when garrisoned isn’t good and could use a buff, like making them as effective as Arbs/CA since the Teutons can’t use these units.

It’s not because you have a meatshield that the enemy won’t try to snipe your siege with his LC/eagles. Ironclad is good because that additional armor means that enemy suicide missions are much less likely to succeed. Also, it changes the negative armor of rams and siege tower in a positive one, which makes them much more resilient.

A champion without squares? It reminds me that I’ve read Cysion explaining that Portuguese don’t get Squires to make it less easier to defend their Organ guns with infantry. Teutons get FU Siege onager, Heavy scorpion and BBC, so sped up TK = big no.

2 Likes

To be brutally honest, not at all. I suck at death match, so it’s non existant in my mind. Yes, i think about closed maps. But TK still die like flies agains archers.

I don’t get the point about this. You can still defend your siege with tk

It’s true. But what about civs with bad archers? They will have to use their siege and chances are, your own siege will be a good answer (ok, not if they are celts tho 11) The deal is that the TK’s philosophy is to be a slow melee tank while not being too expensive (even if it’s already more costly than champs), and you would need to completely change that if you want to make them faster. As of the comparison with Mahouts and Panokseon, the first one didn’t allow the War Elephant to be more usable outside of TG/DM, and the second works fine because Turtle ships are a ranged unit. Even without it Turtle ships would have their use, since with African Kingdom changes you can pop them as soon as you hit castle, while the enemy is stucked with tiny ships.

What I meant is that if it’s important for a Halbs+Organ Gun combo to be slighty nerfed by a lack of Squires, then ETK+Ironclad siege onager don’t need a speed upgrade. Of course the ETK can protect the siege (it’s one of their uses) both because it can tank hits well and kill dangerous enemies quickly. If on top of that they have the speed to be more forgiving in their placement, it might be too much.
Also, they have an often overlooked role as the best trash killers in the game, as all trash units kill them in 100 hits (except trashbows, who do so in 50, and Malay sworsdmen, who do so in 34) It can’t be denied they are niche, but they have their uses and are thematically fitting for Teutons.

Well, i guess that explains their use, although I find rater disappointing that I hardly see them. Maybe it’s just that paladin meta is just too established, because siege + TK doesn’t sound like a bad option afterall

Yes, TK with Squires and +30% tech can be faster than Champion without Squires but would not be faster than Champion with Squires.
I mean, 30% is maximum of the acceptable range.

Elite Skirmisher with no Bracer = Weakness.
Halberdier is well but the problem is only Halberdier can be used in the late game, that is still weak.

Yes, as you said, every civ can use Knight except for Indians, but there are different meaning. Viking Knight since their strong eco with free Hand Cart, Ethiopian Knight since extra 100 food and gold, Malay Knight since their quick age upgrading. All of them use Knight as the transition instead of the main power. So Teuton should be compared with other cavalry civ like Franks, Huns, Magyar, etc. Although it already has the resistance, it still worth Husbandry.

The problem is the occasion you use infantry basically is almost impossible to put them in buildings instead of the front. Teutons have farther-range castles, free Murder Hole and Hand Cannoneer, so don’t worry about their defense.

I did not deny that Ironclad has a positive effect on protecting the siege weapons, but it is still meaningless because you would pay the resources on training more units to protect Mangonel instead of constructing a castle and researching it. If the player has extra resources, it may get a try, but it is not worth considering in most of occasions.

Basically , it may not change too much on protecting the siege weapons because TK still slower than most of melee units even if +30%. Speeding up TK just makes it more useful in the other occasions.

The guys who said about teutons not needing ETK being faster or that they don’t need any bonus because of the monk resistance, does he knows how to play?

No actual expert uses teutons in arena for a reason, specially in DE whereas the monk wins over LC and ews, which i forgot teutons don’t get lc, sc has less conversion resistance.

ETK deserves a buff, after all the new civs unique units introduced, the UU from Lithuanians destroys them badly, the balance of that unit hasn’t been changed since Age of kings, its been 20 years after that.

They need a buff in their unique unit, bracer and lc to be competitive with the new civs, adjusting their UT so castles don’t get 14 range.

4 Likes

I loved the troy McClure reference lol

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Do you realise how much stronger can speed make the ETK? You would have to take away something from them in exchange, and they would lose their melee tank identity.

What I know is that the monk buff isn’t in the official DE changelog, which likely means it’s unintended and going to be fixed. It’s like saying scout speed needed to be nerf because they could go through walls.

I couldn’t find anything that supports that. Furthermore, what I see is that people rarely bother to buy the light cav upgrade in Castle if they need to snipe monk, scouts work just fine.

That’s literally 1 unit that can beat them on melee without being an elephant, that’s all. And the Leitis only win with a few HP left, while costing 80 gold . I’m sure they are less cost effective than Samurai/Jaguars. They might be better with relics, but that would be a lot of hassle to do that knowing the Teuton dude just has to switch to Halbs. And anyway, that’s like saying the addition of SL, Keshiks and Konniks is a buff since that’s 3 units the TK can kill easily.

It received a small speed boost in the African Kingdoms. Also, Siege towers gave them another niche use, and Ironclad is also cool for comboing them with rams.

Since Teutons don’t get Shipwright and Dry dock they will still have a bad navy. They don’t get Arbs, Thumb ring or even Heavy cav archer so it won’t matter there either. I guess it will buff their towers and that’s all.

Welp, Teutons got competition as soon as AoC, with the Koreans for the Tower civ spot and Aztec for the farming civ spot. Even with the introduction of civs like Slavs, Teutons never hit pre-buff Khmer level of mediocrity. Maybe they aren’t going to be absolute meta, but they are decent.

1 Like

11 thanks! At least someone liked it

I disagree. I’m not asking them to be fast. I’m asking them to be fast enough to be usefull. Being tanky doesn’t matter if you die before fighting. Right now, TK are completely useless. Even with the 30% speed boost they would be slow, but usable. I don’t think they’ll break the meta, since with that speed, you can counter them with anything that trow arrows

good points, but they could definitely be better… just because they arent the worst or unusable doesnt mean they dont need some work done… imo the woad raider, throwing axe men and TK could all do with some looking at as they are all dated profiles with more effective modern equivalents.

eagles, gbeto, bulgarian 2H swordsmen. roughly all do what the older units do, but more effectively, and thus appear more often…

Well, I think woad rider are the default option for celts. They’re better than their paladins. Throwing axe man are kinda nichhe, but I’ve won games with them. In castle age, when your opponent is full of pikes, waiting for your cavs… They’re a fatal blow. Plus, they’re easier to mass due to vheap frankish castles.

But TK are really useless. At least, that’s how I see it.

Unless you play King of the Hill and massed up 10k+ res of each, TKs are close to completly useless in nearly any matchup. The problem is simply that you always have better units, that are easier to mass, faster and cheaper. Even on Boommaps you will rarely ever see someone going TKs (unless he is trolling ofc). If you go for Siege Onager for example, you will always add halbs, simply because they protect the SOs better, are cheaper and dont need castles. Even if you are flooding in gold you will not add TK, but rather Hand Cannons, Palas, BBTs, those units have either more mobility or are much cheaper (yes even a BBT has more mobility than a TK, and making a few BBT is cheaper than teching up TK + producing them). I like the relic idea, TKs would need to be at least as fast as champion without quires to be somewhat useful. Even if they are slightly faster than a champion with squires, they would very likely not be OP due to their high cost.
Beside a TK buff teutons also need something to compensate up for their husbandry lacking knight line, which makes them extremly vulnerable in TGs on open land maps. Maybe a civ bonus like +1 pierce armor for kt line might help out here.

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I suggest:

-Infantry can shot arrows from a TC, tower or castle. (as a starting bonus, not as a tech)
-Teutons gain siege ram.

That’s all.

1 Like