I think in TG what holds them “back” the most is their low mobility. They are still more viable in TGs than in 1v1 despite that.
So if we buff their speed it’s actually possible they become OP in TGs…
Any new ideas or a we through? I hoped for some more tbh…
Just reduce the weakness to halbs?
this. +5 ele armor for standard. +10 for Elite. though frankly i’m not sure if Castle age eles need such a buff, they already take 6 shots to die (assuming bloodlines).
I’m not a big fan of this actually.
I like counter mechanics and eles need to be hardcountered by halbs cause of their high pop efficiency.
I discussed in severa other Threads that I would like techs that reduce pop space consumption of certain units, especially infantry and foot archers. If this happens I would be open to give battle eles ele armor or reduce damage from pikes/halbs.
I’ve said this in the other thread: +5/+10 doesn’t do anything. You need at least +12 for one additional hit. I think the smarter approach would be to lower the bonus attack from pikes/halbs
Giving them +10 elephant armor doesn’t really make them not hard countered by halbs.
it just makes them less hard countered by them.
for example, a Paladin dies in 6 hits to a fully upgraded halb. (teuton/franks 7).
meanwhile an elite battle elephant dies in 5 hits right now. with +10 armor they die instead in 6 hits of 5. that’s a 20% increase.
false. halbs do 6 (base)+4(bs upgrades)+32 (Cav)+28(elephant) for a total of 70 damage.
after armor that is 66. 320/66 = 4.84 hits, or 5 hits from halbs to kill.
with +10 Elephant armor they take instead (6 base, + 4 from bs upgrades + 32 cavalry armor + 18 elephant armor) for a total of 56 damage a shot, or 320/56 = 5.71 hits, or 6 hits from a halb to kill.
what do you think adding elephant armor does? by adding elephant armor you are basically lowering the bonus damage from pikes and halbs.
Well, then I correct myself: +5 doesn’t do anything. Hence the +12 armor in Castle Age. This would translate to two additional hits instead of one, which you also said in the other post, would probably not be necessary.
except castle age isn’t really problematic. at 50 damage a shot and 270 health you’re already surviving 6 shots. I’d literally only add the armor too the elite.
It is still problematic in a sense that you can’t afford it in Castle Age. I guess your idea was good, just not fine tuned. +6 would do the trick, and everything else you said makes sense to me personally.
However Bengali Elephants already endure 7 hits and don’t see much use at the time. So is this really where eles need buffs?
why would i need to buff them in castle age if i don’t find them overly hard countered in castle age?
do we really have enough data to say one way or another on this civ and its elephant use yet? seriously man it’s been barely a month, we have had 1 tournament where the new civs were available.
Again, thats not what I’m saying either. I find them not used enough, when I would like to have them as a good chunk of my army when I play an elephant civilisation.
that has to do with them costing 190 total resources.
you want them used in castle age? short of massively reducing their cost and rebalancing them it won’t happen.
i don’t even see khmer go castle age elephants.
then rebalance elephants around a lower affordable cost but without as much destructive power. because that’s literally the only way seeing them in castle age will happen.
Yeah, that’s such a bummer isn’t it? We have six civs with elephants and only one (maybe two) can realistically go for them.
Also Bengalis might need more data, but Burmese certainly don’t. They have been consistently bad after the arambai change (which was a good change) and they are supposed to play elephants. Even their latest buff says that. So what do we do about those?
It’s most likely a combination of several “bad” attributes eles have like
Higher Food ratio
Slow Movement what means:
Worse Timining
Bad at Raiding / Chasing Vills
Can’t force fights and can’t run away
Low DPS/Investment
Especially weak vs Monks
Comparably easy available counter in the Pike (though that’s comparable to knights)
Certainly I missed also some other important stuff.
I think there is not one single point which makes them so bad. It’s a combination of all.
Ive literally seen every old ele civ use eles. Yes. At the highest level of play. Are rhey situational? Yes. Will you see them in castle? Unlikely. Just because you want something else has no bearing. Everything about them screams situational.
You want rhem to see castle age play? Find a way to rebalance them around a lower cost. Which to me maoes rhem not really elephants
The latest buff is less then a month old. Give it time man.
Against pikes I’d agree the current balance is kinda fine. The problem and core reason why you don’t use elephants in castle age is monks. They hard counter elephants at that stage so easily that you need ranged unit support. And at that point of the game this is unrealistic except you’re malay. You can’t go 1 tc play bc then you can’t afford this comp. And when you boom into that your opponent goes imp and you’ll have a very narrow time window.
Id say cost more rhen monks. 190 resources each makes it hard to use in castle age. Except ofc malay
We have seen a lot of War Wagon play before the nerf also.
Cost isn’t a factor if you get something useful for it.
But ofc the cost is a factor why monks are so effective against eles.
One thing I don’t fully understand is why malay eles are so rarely seen. They are probably the most efficient and achievable eles in the game. Despite that basically nobody plays them (at least on generally open maps).
Wood cost > food cost in castle age
Still, malay eles in Castle age are about the same cost as knights and still rarely see use.