Bring Back The Forgotten's DLC Model

I think The Forgotten had one of the best DLC models in AoE2. Instead of focusing on one region, it brought together civilizations from different parts of the world that were genuinely missing from the game.

Later DLCs increasingly focused on a single region. While this has given us some great civilizations, it can also lead to lower-priority civilizations being added simply because they fit the DLC’s regional theme.

I think future DLCs should focus on what the game needs most, rather than completing one particular region.

For example, I would much rather see a DLC with:

Danes + Serbians + Tanguts + one African civilization.

They don’t need to come from the same region. What matters is that each civilization fills a genuine historical gap and brings something new to the game.

The Forgotten’s approach was simple: don’t ask which region needs more civilizations — ask which civilizations AoE2 needs most.

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Yeah I don’t think new DLC have to focus on one region they can cover a larger area. “The Conquerors” also hat civs from all around the world.

The Forgotten is obviously a creation of it’s circumstances. It was supposed to be a mod that fills the gaps left by the Conquerors and not to be the start of a new series of DLC. But that doesn’t mean something like that couldn’t work again.

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i actually like the regional DLC focus more, because with that they can fleshout certaine regions in a far bigger way, than adding just 1 civ from there.

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I wouldn’t mind a DLC with a conceptual basis, rather than being strictly regional. Or one which has a wider reach than just one cultural or geographic region.

Like, say, Indian Ocean DLC, spanning the whole distance of it, including civs like Swahilis, Somalis, Sinhala and Javanese. It sort of relies on he Indian Ocean trade to provide its core concept.

Their campaigns can still somewhat focus on the civs’ interactions between each other, even if they’re sprawled across different continents, with Javanese taking over Gajah Mada while Malay get a campaign during the Srivijaya Empire, which was a prominent thalassocracy in the region.

Back before Mountain Royals was released, I thought about a mountain-based civ DLC with Swiss, Georgians, Tibetans and Chancas. Well, the Georgians got added, while the Tibetans were heavily disavowed since then, but the principle still holds.

Although you gotta admit, having a regional focus probably saves on development time. So I wouldn’t be annoyed if future DLC continue with this model.

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I’d rather see this happening as a last DLC instead of the current model for civs such as Tibetans and Swiss.

It would be terrible to snub some civs for a random pack as I’d love having the popular requested Vlachs with Serbs and Albanians instead of adding Vlachs randomly if the devs thought about Balkans and ofc Nubians with other African civs instead of mixing them up with random ones.

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I won’t disagree but the holdings seem a tad too perfect to have been written by you. Please tell me a machine didn’t help you write this

My friend, what you need to do isn’t attack me with two sentences, but to produce arguments, discuss the main idea of ​​the post, and speak up if you have an opinion.

Even doctors are using AI these days. I might be someone with low intelligence, but if AI can defend an idea better than me, why shouldn’t I use it? This would also be more understandable and clear for the reader.

And if you really care, I first explained the entire main idea and what I was arguing for to the AI. I only asked it to clearly summarize my ideas. And I even made corrections later. What’s wrong with that? And this shouldn’t even be what we’re arguing about right now! If you disagree with the idea in the post, produce arguments and prove to us that you’re smarter than AI!

I don’t disagree with the argument at all. I literally have been calling for a forgotten/conqs style expansion since… well i don’t want to go back too many decades

I could actually see Tlaxcalans and some Filipino civs added in the same DLC because Tlaxcalan auxiliaries fought for the Spanish in the Philippines and they could feature in the campaign. So half a globe from each other but still making sense in one DLC from a narrative perspective.

I think the Forgotten DLC model is great for filling gaps in regions where we have a lot of different civs. A regional DLC is good for getting a good amount of civs on the map, where we currently have few or no civs.

Because in the end, campaigns profit from a lot of different civs interacting with each other, creating variety from Mission to Mission. If they add single civs to regions where there aren’t many, that will hurt the campaign and create mission with mirror matches (see African campaigns).

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I don’t think it’s as good as it sounds on paper though it can work if you pull it out with a theme in mind. Good luck adding Javanese, Tibetans, Nubians and Swiss and make it look coherent though. It can happen but you need to work double for editor objects/units and for a theme that doesn’t feel disjointed. Not a case that the forgotten has the worst campaigns: Bari, el Dorado, Dracula…

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It’s better to make regional DLC.

Because a DLC like The Conquerors and the Forgotten has a big problems, lack of asset and opponent.

The original game was good but now it’s better because in the campaign there is more accurate civilization who were replaced when the corresponding DLC come. One of the first thing I do when they release a new DLC is to go to the old campaigns, enter the cheat code marco polo and watch what they modify (changing the player civilization, changing the unit on the map, searching for new decorations). I can’t wait to check scenarios were they put new civilizations in replacement of the Vikings and Saxons.

There was also bad thing like the middle eastern architectural set for the Byzantine with a mosque skin for a christian civilization.

The Conquerors was a mesoamerican pack + their spanish ennemy + one spanish campaign + Attila.

There was enemy of spanish for the Cid campaign (Saracen). For the Attila campaign the only accurate enemy were the Goths, Franks and the Byzantine.

On top of this there was the phone-call from Microsoft who ad the Korean.

This was mostly a semi regional DLC.

The Forgotten ad five civilizations. But one of them was the Inca, a good civilization but the thing that this was at that time the most isolate civilization of the game mean that their campaign was inca vs themselves.

The Eldorado campaign was also mostly inca vs themselves. If one day they remade an official port with The Last Chieftains assets this will be awesome.

Pritviraj was mostly Indian vs themselves until the Dynasty of India. Also a bad thing it’s there was no indian architectural set at this time they use the middle eastern architectural set. Later I replayed this campaign when Dynasty of India was released and I say : “Know I am in India !”

The African Kingdoms ad four civilizations and the campaign of two of them (Malians and Ethiopian) are mostly vs themselves. This was the first regional DLC and they made this well in term of assets (architectural set, fauna, flora, decoration). But this will be better if they swap some player in the scenarios in a future african DLC where they will ad more civilizations.

Rise of the raja ad four civilizations with many regional asset. Four campaigns where they fought against other civilizations in the region. Also some civilizations in the previous DLC were present : Portuguese, Chinese, Mongols, Indians.

The same trend continue from The Last Khan until the Mountain Royal The best DLC in term of narration was Dawn of the Dukes, three related campaigns, three characters who overlap.

The Pachacuti campaign was the worst because at this time the Inca was the most isolate civilization of the game mean that their campaign was inca vs themselves with aztec and maya units and an out of place maya architectural set. This was the worst campaign of the game before the last Chieftains in term of immersion.

Return of Rome fail because the gameplay is not as good as AoE2 but at least it’s a game mod who doesn’t impact on the main game. It content neither the player of AoE1 or those of AoE2.

Chronicles also ad two “regional” in term of time and history. One core (Battle of Greece) and then expanding very well with Alexander. He achieve that return of Rome failed because it’s simply AoE2 gameplay in Antiquity and with cross-play on top of this.

The Three Kingdoms was not we expected. I really enjoyed the 3K factions and campaigns but I think almost all of us wanted a DLC that takes place during the Song dynasty with Khitan, Tangut, Jurchen, Tibetan with their respective campaigns + chinese and korean campaign. In the future never release a new civilization without one campaign.They did good at reworking the Chinese and the Korean but fail with the nomadic civilization (why they put pasture for only one civilization ?). The good thing it’s at least we gain a ton of regional unit and assets and two medieval civilizations (without campaign sadly).

The Last Chieftain was good in term of immersion with a lot of asset, the Pachacuti campaign become good because of the new assets, it’s no longer Incas vs themselves. the other campaigns also avoid the new civilization vs themself problem.

The next Viking Sagas DLC seem promising. New assets : architectural set, the viking’s buildings will look like vikings buildings after 27 years. three related civilization who were neighbors. The concept of following the adventures of one character who travel all the viking is good. The concept is also the end of the viking age and it’s perfect because until now all the viking scenarios were either in the first century of the viking age or featuring the viking travel to America.

Regional DLC are good

Regional DLC are good because in most of history when there was a war there was against the neighbors. So it’s better to put civilizations who are next geographically. For example there is Berber in the Cid Campaign and before DE there were played by the Turks. And when they did regional DLC they focus on regional asset and they did many who profit also to old civilizations.

Regional DLC work well, even the Three kingdoms was good in term of assets. In the future follow this trend : new related civilizations + campaigns, regional assets, campaigns for the old civilizations who lacks them. Upgrading the old campaigns with new civilizations and assets.

Here I put a list of 22 potential regional DLC

The only other thing who can work is campaigns only DLC (and I say real original campaigns not scenario only DLC like Victors and vanquished with mostly recycled workshop content and no news assets) + new assets.

Apart of this another game mode can be added and if with cross-play better. Chronicles will continue with a high probability. Star wars galactic battleground can be added but I think without cross-play because of the aerial unit and the terrain impassable by other than air unit. Another fantasy setting like Lords of the rings can be added but here also I think without cross-play because of the air unit.

The Conquerors and The Forgotten having few enemy civs to play against is mostly due to the fact that there were fewer civs to use, not because they weren’t regional. But even then you miscounted, because the Prithviraj campaign featured Turks and Persians even back in The Forgotten. And in the DE it added in Tatars.

Also, if you’re complaining about the Huns campaign because “only Franks, Byzantines and Goths were accurate” back in The Conquerors, then you should be complaining even more about the new Inca campaign enemies because none of them were Tupis or Muisca. No civ other than Incas is accurate to any of them. And if we count “mostly mirror matches” this applies to Muisca as well, once you consider the Panches in the third scenario shouldn’t be Incas.

But why would a DLC featuring Swiss need a regional focus? Burgundians, Italians, Teutons and Franks, the civs bordering them are all in the game.

Sure, The Forgotten is like The Conquerors 2.0 but focused, as its name suggests, on the civilizations that were forgotten by the original developers and didn’t make the cut for The Conquerors (for example, Incas, Italians, Magyars, Slavs, Native Americans) because they were too similar to the other civilizations in the game… According to Sandy Petersen, if it weren’t for the El Cid and Attila campaigns, they wouldn’t have included the Spanish and Huns in The Conquerors and would have included the Habsburgs and Slavs instead; and if it hadn’t been for the SC1 boom in Korea, they wouldn’t have included the Koreans in The Conquerors and would have included the Native Americans instead (as they later did in AoE 3 TAD, which included the Chinese, Japanese, and Native Americans)…

Yes, a new African DLC would be good for TAK’s campaigns, giving us a greater variety of civs to face…

I did like RoR (even though I have 1DE)… in fact, I would have liked to see more DLCs in this mode covering the end of the Bronze Age against the Sea Peoples and Iron Age campaigns for the Assyrians, Phoenicians, and Persians, and then campaigns in East Asia (Shang, Choson, and Lac Viet)…

Yes, something like Yue Fei’s Legacy from AoE 4 but for 2DE…the Jurchen campaign on one hand (Jin Dynasty) and the Chinese campaign on the other (Yue Fei)…the 3K were meant for Chronicles, but they messed everything up…:roll_eyes:

Yes, that’s true, although given the colonial context, I feel it’s more suited to AoE 3 (and in the Mapuche campaign they missed the opportunity to start with the Battle of the Maule River in 1485 against Tupac Yupanqui, connecting with the end of the Inca campaign and finishing in 1598 with the Battle of Curalaba)…

Exactly, for me it’s an excellent DLC for the game… you have the Saxons (to represent the Anglo-Saxons fighting against the Vikings), the Danes (to represent the Kalmar union after the Viking Age) and the Varangians (to represent the Byzantine elite guard, although I would have preferred them to be called Swedes like in AoE 3 and be done with it, although it’s true that it might have been a bit anachronistic if medieval Sweden wasn’t represented)…

Yes, but Disney already told them no with SWGB and BftME isn’t even a 2D game… they’d have to do a lot more than just get the license…

Exactly, at that time AoE 2 had very few civs (now it has many more than it should xd)…

Unless their Wonder really is a tree…

Eh, “indios” always got translated as “Native Americans”…

Yes, but that’s been wrong since Columbus’s time, when he thought he had reached India…because Indians are from India, in America they would be Native Americans…

I know, just found it interesting that the translator assumes that “indios” in Spanish is more likely to refer to Native Americans/Amerindians rather than Indians nowadays. Whether that’s actually the case, I don’t know.

A new “Forgotten” DLC should be there to fill gaps in regions that are already covered not spawn a lonely civ in South Africa. So civs that have no shortages of neighbours or better even civs that have appeared in multiple campaigns but had to be represented by the wrong civs, like Goths or turned to many scenarios into mirror matches.

I personally think that regional DLC are generally better but once in a while we should have one to fill in the gaps. Not something they should do often.

Swiss are a good example for a civ that would be a bad pic for a regional DLC. A regional DLC would force developers to add more civs from the region but the closes uncovered space to Switzerland is the Balkans which alone offer enough for a regional DLC.

An African civ would be the worst pic for a “Forgotten” DLC because there is so much uncovered territory on that continent that it’s easily enough for multiple regional DLC.

A huge advantage of a “Forgotten” DLC is that it makes more different kinds of people happy. There are a lot of people that have seeing more European DLC while others only care about additional European civs. Having a DLC with civs from multiple continents and maybe late and early Medieval has something for everyone.

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Yes, it must be due to literal translation that passed from language to language… In America, “Indians” was always used (as heard in Western movies), but to differentiate from India, “Native Americans” began to be used in the United States and “Indigenous peoples” or “original peoples” in Latin America… I studied it in Anthropology last semester…