No since they have a gold discount for all of their units.
The only issue is, the Gold discount is not large enough to be that useful, and Ports choke in Castle Age.
A large gold discount would be a bit broken in imp. But yes, it can work. Also leaving as it is but extending it to tech.
I still think that, if Portuguese are buffed, they should be pushed towards the UU, to be more original. Instead of a halabs+onager combo, Portuguese should have a halab+OG combo, as originally thought.
To do that I would slightly buff their early game (TC techs cheaper and faster) and then I would increase the OG rof.
Water would be improved as well, but, to make it better, we could switch the effects of UT and water buff, or making the UTs researched in the university…
Agreed. Maybe even buildings (Bombard Tower and Wonder). They can do no gold drush if loom cost 15% less.
Cool idea but I think extra armor in feudal would be a bit OP. Giving them some type of wood bonus in early game would work better to improve them in water map. Also the UTs are meant to be researched from the castle. Having the option of researching them from University sounds really cool but I don’t want it.
In early game yes but from late castle the bonus start to kick in. Increasing the gold discount would be OP in late game especially in water maps.
This one would be better instead. Can afford some necessary techs like unit and blacksmith upgrades, ballistic, chemistry a bit earlier which will definitely help.
A 20% Gold discount will never be as OP as the Vikings 20% full resource discount, or Italians 50% Techs discount, on Water.
As for Land, Ports already lack Squires, so Champions are out of the equation, their Cav Archers are not great, and lack Paladin, Siege Ram, Heavy Scorpion and Siege Onager, so the Gold discount would only really ever help with 5 units: Monks, Arbalests, Organ Guns, Hand Cannoneers and Bombard Cannons.
4 of those 5 units are hard-countered by Skirmishers, so I do not think increasing the Gold discount would make Ports OP in any area of the gameplay, or any stage of the game.
Still 20% is very good in imp, less early.
I guess that the issue is not that 20% gold discount is op. The problem is more related to the fact that portos need help much more in early stages than in imp.
So, despite 20% is good and probably balanced, there may be other buffs for Portuguese fitting better their current needs.
For instance a TC tech buff on cost and speed, and/or a university buff for discounted techs (and possibly the ability of researching UTs).
I would say that this is enough for earlier stages. Regarding the late game I would like to see a better OG, so that it becomes the way to go for portos (like halabs + OGs instead of a classical halans+SOs)…
It definitely is, but still less than the Vikings discount, and Italians will still likely ahve more resources due to the Tech savings.
You also have to take into account taht Ports have neither Shipwright nor Fast Fire Ships, so they have to take those big Galleon fights in a way that is very innefficient with Wood.
They do have the +10% HP bonus and carrack, but Carrack has to be teched at a Castle, and the 10% HP is really not that much.
In fact, Saracens faster firing Galleons tend to be better than Ports +10% HP Galleons.
It is, however, true taht Ports can stack bonii and UTs unto their Navy, and that Feitoria makes sure you are never permanently out of Gold.
But in resource trickle is so low that youy really have to choose between Feitorias or Defensive Castles over your Docks, not to mention the Population cost of them, and that they will not pay themselves off in a regular game (they do not tend to last that long).
As for the bonus + UT stacking, it is a slow process, and the results are still underwhelming in the end.
All in all, I remain convinced that a 20% Gold discount would solve a lot of issues with Ports, both on Water and on Land, while still not making them a great Meta civ, just another Water option.
True but Vikings discount is 15% before imp and they lack the fire galley line completely.
Honestly if you want to see Portuguese competing Vikings,Italians,and Japanese in water maps, you need either a strong eco bonus other than depending on gold discount or a stronger water military options from early castle age. Unless the gold discount is something crazy like 30% or even higher, only gold discount would not help them against those 3 monsters (11) of water maps. But that would be broken in late game and even in land maps. Which is why I agree with this -
But it is 15% in both Wood and Gold, which is better than 20% in a single resource.
Vikings also have Longboats, the only Naval UU that actually sees competitive play, and is regularly massed.
The Caravel is a joke by comparrison.
Stronger military is not something I would want, as Ports already have the slow stacking.
20% Gold discount is already a huge Eco bonus, specially because 80 Gold Castle Age Monks would actually do decently against some Ships, and you would need less Vills on gold, therefore being able to put more on Wood and pump out more War Galleys and Caravels.
I disagree, as it would make Ports into Italians 2.0, but now also great on Land.
I would prefer it if Tech Discounts remain an Italian-Chinese-Spanish theme.
I think this will solve some issues but not a lot of. Their land options is limited to gunpowder and FU arbalest only. So I don’t think that 5% more gold saving would be a huge impact.
Water meta is literally limited to only 3 civs and which is exactly why I want Portoguese to be a water map meta civ. They have only 2 civ bonuses if you consider feitoria as just a unique building with very very situational use. There is option for them to have a whole new civ bonus. Which should be either -
1.An early food/wood bonus like Mill/Lumber Camp/Mining camp and Dock provides +5 pop space so that they can play just like those top 3 water beasts and also be fairly well in land maps.
2.An early castle age military boost like getting War galley/Careening upgrade for free so that they can fight to take control of the water. At this point of the game Italians and Japanese supposed to have a huge lead in water control and this bonus would help them to fight back and put them equal in terms of water military. Interchanging the civ bonus and UT can also be an option but that would be a bit OP in feudal age imo. I would still prefer the first option because this one is limited to water only.
I heard anecdotally that Portuguese do not have Squires because the developers felt Squires makes it too easy to defend Organ Guns with spears. But I don’t know if that was before or after the Organ Gun changes made way back in HD. So maybe with the current meta, Squires might have less of an impact than it would have in HD?
Either way, I like the idea of changing the dynamic between spears and Organ Guns so that Halberdier + Elite Organ Gun can function as the Portuguese’s version of Halberdier + Siege Onager, where the Organ Gun trades the Onager’s effectiveness vs. buildings and large area of effect for flexibility vs. more unit types by being less micro intensive.
The Orjan Gun and University buffs should do it.
Those two are necessary especially the former. And ASAP.
Fun idea: Move Feitoria to Castle Age, and maybe adjust its cost to make it more affordable in Castle Age. A Fast Imperial into Feitoria economy is a viable strategy on walled maps which balances out by Town Center economies eventually becoming faster and more population efficient than the initial economy spike from Feitoria. The same thing could be done for Castle Age.
people in the past complained a lot of this proposal… feitorias are very difficult to balance.
Personally, I would push them towards the UU. Something like:
- gold discount extended to techs (eco buff)
- increased rof of organ guns to make it a go-to unit paired with halabs
- UT can be researched in the university
Typical Portuguese game may include a no-gold drush Into FC or into cheap archers.
In castle the improved gold discount helps for archers -> UUs. If mobility is needed you have cheap knights. Also discounted tech is useful for monks…
It can work. I don’t think Portuguese needs any castle age buff though.
actually castle age is when they do need love. the problem is do you really want your civs buff to be one based around a gimmick that you’re later going to delete because its not population efficient?
i can say that i wouldn’t.
Huh? Their castle age is insane. Fully upgraded knights, crossbows, pikes and siege, monks (with a discount!), organ guns… And those are just the things you’d prime to go for. What’s not to love?
They don’t have a mid game economy bonus, but a lot of civs don’t (like spanish, ironically, and you could argue malay since their bonus is sporadic in time and technically not an eco bonus). I fail to see any civ matchup (except for meso, which are good against most civs) where they don’t have the options to compete.
can i ask who you are playing against that you think they have an insane castle age?
first of all, most civs have all those (except the discount and the UU obviously).
how about the 42% winrate before the 30 minute mark?
they save on units. that is an economy bonus.
Spanish save gold on BS tech. that is definitely an eco bonus.
the problem is other civs get to specialize in their options, like Japanese with faster attacking infantry, or Franks with faster producing Knights, or Britons with longer range archers, or Mongols with faster attacking cav archers. Portuguese get a lot of options, but all them are GENERIC. cheaper yes, but Generic none the less. they are like Goths in that quantity over quality is the name of the game. the problem is, nothing gives them the ability to pump out that quantity over quality like the goths enjoy.