Buff Greeks, Nerf Japan

The problem with Greek matchups against Japan is not that Greeks are weak, but that their intended identity no longer functions. Greeks are designed around limited but powerful heroes, strong myth units, and slower, deliberate play that trades early tempo for late-game payoff. Japan overlaps all of these strengths while retaining very few exploitable weaknesses.

This is most visible in the Onmyo–Asura synergy. While Onmyos can technically be sniped, Asuras deal splash damage while moving and, together with Onis, have extremely high health pools. . With damage, durability, and mobility all present at once, counterplay collapses — if stats remain unchanged, movement speed must be reduced.

Japan’s god powers further undermine asymmetry. New Moon provides early tempo acceleration that Greeks only access much later and at a weaker level, erasing Greece’s identity partly. Forge of ollympus doesnt make researching tech any quicker.. A similar issue exists with Onis versus Colossi, where Japan gains comparable power without the same timing or opportunity cost.

The hero system makes the identity issue unavoidable. Greeks are deliberately capped on hero count and meant to be compensated with quality and uniqueness. Japanese heroes such as Daimyo and Onna-Musha often match or exceed Greek heroes while being far more numerous and scalable. Meanwhile, Greek heroes like Ajax and Chiron lack their campaign abilities, while Japanese heroes arrive with special mechanics by default, nullifying the purpose of Greek hero limits.

Because Japan can field large numbers of heroes alongside powerful myth units, Greeks are forced into unfavourable matchups- and myth-heavy fights. The idea of Olympian Weapons converting Greek units into heroes illustrates how extreme the compensation would need to be — which is precisely why Japan should be tuned down instead. Greek unique units cannot stand up to sustained hero and myth spam when they are not heroes themselves.

At a roster level, Japan pulls from the strengths of multiple pantheons with minimal tradeoffs: strong infantry, powerful myth units, massable heroes, high tempo, excellent god powers, and even cavalry archers — traditionally an Egypt role. Greeks, meanwhile, still carry their full weaknesses: slower armies, limited heroes, and favor opportunity cost. When older pantheons keep their drawbacks while newer ones accumulate strengths, asymmetric strategy gives way to overlap and redundancy.

This design failure is reflected in results. Tsukuyomi has the highest win rate against all Greek gods, which is not coincidence. Again all JAPAN gods have higher win rates against all of the Greeks. When one pantheon consistently beats an entire other pantheon, it is no longer a balance issue but a systemic one — Greek identity simply does not function in this matchup.

If Japan is going to retain such a broad toolkit, then its units must be sharply counterable. Hard counters preserve identity. The Prodromos exemplifies this: devastating against cavalry, but extremely vulnerable to archers. Japanese cavalry heroes have no comparable weakness; their only drawback is low hack armor, which becomes irrelevant when supported by multiple high-HP Onis and numerous heroes with special attacks. Sure I can myth spam, but they got long ranged heroes to help deal with that. We’re stil llimimted to four heroes. Frankly just lower Bushis ranged. You’ve already given Japan chariot archers, make bushis range its own weakness. lower pierce armour resistence of cavalary heroes and you’d fix their hero roster massively…. Why do yuimi archers even have the same range as Hades archers? Just what are they thinking???

As a result, Japanese cavalry heroes trade well into myth units, remain durable against ranged fire, and scale through hero and myth mass. Greeks are hard-limited to four heroes until Mythic Age, and even then Olympian Weapons is only a simple 2× modifier that does little against high pierce armor which their myth units ALL HAVE VERY HIGH PIERCE ARMOUR. Oh and good luck sending your myrmidons as Zeus, Asura will kill them all before they can reach him. With mixed compositions of Oni, ranged heroes, and cavalry heroes — further reinforced by Gusting Wind forcing favorable engagements — Greeks lack a clean, decisive answer.

In short, Japan is not just strong; it overlaps other pantheons’ strengths while avoiding meaningful weaknesses. Without clear, exploitable downsides, Greek identity will continue to collapse in practice, and the asymmetry that defines the game will erode.

I agree that greek heroes need further buffs. Especially the first 3, which become very weak in mid and late game. They should probably get their campaign abilities and also scale their stats more aggressively.

The wizzard + asura combo is broken against everyone except atty who can just spam arcus heroes. Asura needs hp nerfsz as does the oni and the water slime dude that teleports around.

Japan has accumulated too much versatility from other pantheons while retaining very few meaningful weaknesses. The result is a matchup that doesn’t feel strategically interactive — individual decisions rarely convert into advantage, and outcomes are driven more by toolkit overlap than execution.

Even when Greeks win an engagement, tools like Gusting Wind can erase the fight and immediately restore Japan’s tempo, turning correct play into temporary inconvenience. This lack of consequence is amplified in Mythic Age, where Japan gains additional, fight-ending god powers without having paid comparable costs earlier. All Japan gods have access to fight ending God powers…. Only Zeus does notably for the Greeks.

All Japanese gods have access to decisive Mythic god powers, while only Zeus has an equivalent among the Greeks. The remaining Greek gods are left with Earthquake or Vaults, which lack the same immediacy or combat-ending impact. This asymmetry reinforces the broader pattern: Japan retains Greece’s strengths while shedding its limitations.

Taken together, Japan functions less as a distinct pantheon and more as a strictly superior version of Greece — broader coverage, faster tempo, and far fewer weaknesses. At that point, choosing Greeks stops being a strategic decision and becomes a matter of preference rather than competitiveness.

Japan’s tools do not meaningfully constrain each other; the pantheon violates the principle of mutual exclusion. When a faction is given answers to nearly every situation, those answers must come with clear tradeoffs. If Japan’s design refuses to close doors while granting such broad utility, the result is not asymmetry but poor systemic design. My correct answer to their army does not create leverage which is why I particuarlly HATE playing against Japan. Their CHOICES DO NOT CLOSE DOORS.

Hades has really good win rates against basically ever Major god other then the Japanese and the other Greeks.

Just simply buffing Greeks and nerfing Japanese would just create new imbalances.

If you look at >1200 ELO the top 6 gods are from each of the 6 pantheons atm. aomstats - Age of Mythology: Retold stats and leaderboards

This implies that it’s not the pantheons themselves that are unbalanced, it’s the individual major or minor gods that are. Asuras are not available to Tsukuyomi who has the best win rates btw.

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Japan invalidates Greek identity — that is the core argument. When lower-rated players gravitate toward Tsukuyomi and see immediate jumps in ranking, it points to a systemic issue with Japan’s design, not isolated balance quirks. As outlined above, Japan’s toolkit overlaps Greek strengths while avoiding their tradeoffs, which is why this matchup fails in practice. You can make the correct strategic decisions for your pantheon and still lose, because those decisions do not create leverage against Japan’s parallel-scaling tools

The problem with pantheon/civilisation identity is that it will have to be watered down eventually because there are not infinite different ways you can design a civ.

So there will be eventually multiple civs that have a similar identity in some way. Chinese have some named unique heroes and Japanese do have some strong and expensive units. But they are both doing them in a different way then Greeks. Japanese strong units cost 4 population which is almost as much as a War Elephant.

And of course Tsukuyomi is a little too strong atm. but that will likely be addressed in the next patch. I don’t think there is anything fundamentally wrong with Japanese, the issue is mostly just the Greek vs. Japanese matchup.

Ra on the other hand has a really hard time right now, but even Ra has >50% win rates against some gods.

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Across all the threads, Japan comes across as overbalanced for the same reason, even when people argue about different units or gods. The common thread isn’t Samurai, Asuras, Oni, or Bushido by themselves, it’s that Japan has answers to everything and very few moments where it actually has to commit and become vulnerable. Its strengths stack instead of competing. It has early tempo, strong heroes, durable myth units, powerful god powers, and ranged coverage, and using one of those doesn’t meaningfully weaken access to the others. That’s why people keep describing situations where they counter correctly, spend more resources, or win early fights, yet don’t gain lasting leverage. The Arcus hero example actually supports this: Atlanteans have a hard, built-in answer that Greeks simply don’t have, which highlights the matchup-specific design failure rather than disproving it.

Yeah, I tried maining Ra before switching to Hades, and the reason Ra stays in check is because removing the empowered villager bonus forces real tradeoffs in how Egypt plays. Japan doesn’t have an equivalent constraint. This isn’t about Egypt at all. My point is that Japan pulls tools and play patterns from multiple pantheons while avoiding the downsides that normally come with them. When a faction is given that much utility and coverage, it has to pay for it somewhere. In the Greece vs Japan matchup, it doesn’t, and that’s why correct Greek play fails to create leverage. Again I later found out about the villiger empowering bonus when I was trying the sphinx build and wondered why it was so slow when in its earlier days it was quicker. Turns out that villiger bonus DID help.

We are not really at that point. If we take a look at aoe3 which is by far the most asymmetric game in the franchise, there’s plenty of room left for unique stats. This game has far less asymmetry so there’s plenty of reserves for unique identity.

The same can be said about China, which has similar stacking dynamics.

I think both should lose the spammable heroes or drastically nerf them against non MU, similar to the norse godi hero.

This opens up using MU against them.

In any case, greek heroes need more HP, especially the earlier ones.

Is it? AoM seems to be more asymmetric to me. The question is how you quantify asymmetry.

I would actually argue that AoE1 is the most asymmetric in the franchise if you really think about it.

They have quite the potent early game weakness that greeks ont have thou. Which you can see on several of their games how its exploited to win over them.

Its a very late game and expensive army. Japan currently has the best late game potential. So yea if you let them get that you are not getting it back most likely. That being said, theres plenty of space to do damage and win before that.

I get that no longer having greek as the favored late game civ hurts (even thou china arguably is also better on that regard)

This seems false. Forge of olympus does make the ugpgrades research faster. Thou i might be misremebering and they took it back. Either way you are comparing a technology with a god power. One of those should be better than the other. Imagine comparing temple of healing with restoration.

You are looking at japan as a greek rebranding. The only similar thing they have is the villager gather rates. Everything else is not the same.

are we forgeting tuma exist? And what does that even matter.So lets say no civ can have anti cal calv because podromos exist? No civ can have range infantry because norse has throwing axemen?

Theres only so much unit combinations that exist. Imagine if a mongol civ roles in and you cant have their iconic mounter archers becaue another civ has something similar. It makes no sense.

So? Is there some hidden rule it cant? No god can have better winrate than any of the 3 greek gods? It seems very biased.

they are weak to the same things any calv unit is. I know you rant about heroes not being cunterable but all the spamable hero units in game that is not a priest or onmioji do take counter damage. Podromos beat and counter the calv heroes for example.

when you realize arcus exist you are gonna have a nightmare.

This is the sole part i agree with, myrmidon do feel lackluster and are rarely made.

Not sure it’s as bad as you seem to say, but I think that greek are definitively weaker than in original game or the early stages of retold. And yes Japan is kind of strong everywhere except with probably a mediocre/abusable early.

I think greek heroes need a buff for late game. They should scale better (especially A1 and A3 heroes), and probably get some technologies to increase their overhaul power too (including A4 heroes) that could be specific to each god to make them play differently.

They are kind of strong in early game but they are really less useful the more the game goes on.

I think myrmidons need something else, they are kind of meh. Gastapheros and heteraroi are more useful.

Oh and something that would be cool, minotaur x3 against MU’s (I was right for colossus he got that x2 finally). In some scenarios it’s annoying that you loose some MU’s trades that you shouldn’t loose just because of that since most mu’s got x3 (last months buffs or new civs)

I think all age1, 2, and 3 probably need a bigger spike in age4.

Greek made sense in a pre Japan/China world cause they had a better eco. But China and Japan now basically max out their eco at greek with plenty vault levels while still keeping an offensive GP in age4.

I still think the main vulnerability of greeks are their heroes and the reliance on MU for combating MU compositions, because they have to divert villagers from eco to favor which results in a net loss for medium term eco power. and even if they do spam MU, china/japan spammable heroes just delete them and still trade well with HU.

Gastas are good cause they are ranged. They were always amazing units.

Heta are just noob traps lol.

Maybe myrmidons should get the 0.5 range buff from Athena. Or not cost 3 pop.

I agree with your points.

I just think you are underestimating hetairos, it’s really not bad against archers, doing probably a better job than hippeus in late game. Of course it’s probably way better in low than high elos but still.

Myrmidon really need something… divine damage is nice on paper, but it’s not doing that much in reality. They are not that speedy (4.5 speed vs 4.9 zeus hoplite), expensive (70f-50g / 3 pop) and need forteress, they are not that tanky due to low pierce armor despite having a decent hp pool. They have 1.4 AS, so their dps is not that high despite good base damage (+ divine).
Yeah they are better at killing MU’s and buildings than most normal infantry. But then hoplite is doing a similar ‘‘generalist’’ infantry but cost less pop and ressources and zeus hoplite are just faster, and speed is one of the best stats, not to mention the small but useful multiplier vs cavalry that help a lot in some situations. And Hypaspist is just better at killing infantry.

So myrmidon is really overshadowed in the greek roster. Maybe they should make it ‘‘tankier’’ or cost 2 pop instead of 3 yep.

By noob trap i meant they perform well against noobs but aren’t that great against people who understand the counter system.

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Yeah I see, but like I said, I think they are a decent replacement of the hippeus for poseidon. The aoe attack can be quite devastating against group of archers, or even against infantry fights dealing overhaul more dps than hippeus in most situations. While Myrmidon will never come close to replace hoplite for Zeus.

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As for the greek unique units. (im only talking from high level)

Hetaroi are by far the Best. Even with the nerfs they still outclases Hippeus in most roles due to how aoe synergizes with lifesteal and the other calv techs Poseidon gets. Once a big enough mass is out there its Just a matter of supporting it with anything that deals with the counter calv unit your opponent has available.

Gastras are more niche but are seeing some more use now with the way hades usually pushes. Being a siege unit that can garrison and has better pathing than petrobolos helps a lot in micro. You dont see archers balls of it purely but some are made in small clusters.

Myrmidon as Cool as divine damage is sadly isnt being actively made. Atherna hoplite is better for most of its similar roles. They are more effective cost wise in being a frontline unit than the myrm and unlike hetairoi they are harder to keep alive and need to be replaced more frequently which you only get to do consistent later on in the game when the fortress count gets high. You mostly see the free myrm hera gives you.

They are a one trick pony that requires a very specific age up path to work. And if you do not follow that specific age up path, you basically fall in the noob trap.

What if myrms become better at dealing with MU? like an actual built-in multiplier (not the one you get from upgrades which would come up top) against MU? it would partially solve, at least for zeus, the hero problem.

They are pretty decent against MU as well with the hepha upgrade

I think the biggest mistake made in greek balancing was giving the beast slayers upgrade only to Artemis. It should be baseline. Artemis could get a hunting based eco upgrade that would work in age4 which better suits her mythology.

If you say so….. Im sure the 3rd spot player of the Last tournament fell for the noob trap. I find it odd to call 2K players noob but i might be wrong.

Some gods do simply work their way with not much of an army comp. I dont see how hetairoi isnt the Best unique greek unit by quite advantage.

Any buff will make them better, it goes to being what type of buff and how it affects it. It wouldnt solve the zeus issue. Since they are still slow and kitable. In fact slower than all the other greek heroes. They also cant Hit air targets.

If im understand Ing correctly, an económica upgrade towards Hunt. Would be the single worst option for eco upgrades for a myrhic god to give. Given Hunt is usually not around when you reach that point.

You didn’t understand correctly. It has to be something that would somehow work in age4. Which means animal spawn or something.

Figured it couldnt be, spawning Hunt would vary from insanely good to meh depending on how many villagers you can have on that.

If its enough to sustain your eco and not need farms its very strong. If not its kinda niche but prob not much else than a little boost. Event thou food eco bonus with artemis goes into the same route as the chinese god that grants the Phoenix. Its nice for food units but the whole god doesnt give anything to those units.