That list sounds very interesting. Let me know if you find it.
I do think Elite Berserks are in a better place than some UU. They have +1 attack and +1 armor compared to champs, and only cost 5 more gold. I wouldn’t be surprised to see them beat something like Malian champions cost effectively. They just cannot beat Viking champions with 84 HP, and both do well against cavalry with chieftains. The 20 additional food cost on Berserks is the main problem IMO. Berserks with Obuch cost would be very tempting (20g + 55f). Even 25g + 50f would be acceptable (basically the effect of supplies on their current price).
Castle Age Berserks are worse all around.They do not have any additional armor or attack compared to Longswords, and have lower HP with a higher cost. They’ll soon have 1 less armor if the Longsword buff goes through (which it should). They also don’t have Berserkergang, so the HP regeneration is slow.
In the context of the civ as a whole, I doubt we’ll see a Viking buff. So I’ll probably just stick with the swordsmen.
Overall several infantry UUs should just be a replacement of the champion. I really like the idea of the winged hussar, unfortunately we cannot have the samurais as a replacement of the champion upgrade.
The idea of UU trainable in the barracks is an option but you should have a UT for that. Unless the devs introduce a tech allowing every civ having access to it to train the UU outside the castel (so just a couple of UTs should be replaced). The big issue would be which civs should have the tech. Probably almost all the civs with an infantry UU…
They should increase the attack of castle age woads and beserks or reduce the cost of their exorbitant elite upgrade
Think Obuch and Sargents are fine because they have specialized roles that are distinct from the champion line and their civs are more cavalry focused and only usually use them as a supporting role and not the main unit, unless it’s the arb obuch combo that poles can use but even then obuch is distinct and better than champs in that role
Kamayuks have fabric shields, stackable attack and anti cavalry bonus. Big reasons to pick that instead of the champion if needed so it’s fine.
Throwing axemen and gbetos are range so that’s ok.
Karambit spammabilty and pop efficiency differentiate them.
Samurai not too sure about this one. I think this one is the most replaceable by champs and would need some buff.
buffs have ruined the game. there should be nerfs instead
infantry should be cost-effective against knights because part of the knights’ cost (and strength) should be the mobility. instead the game is broken with bloodlines and all these random knight-line discounts and buffs they keep handing out to civs without justification, so only a handful of really slanted infantry civs can actually trade with knights
reduce cavalry HP
reduce xbow cheapness/brokenness
nerf eagles a bit too
get rid of supplies
then the infantry UUs get better and regular infantry can be used too instead of just being a meme unit or a goths/malian unique unit
this endless quest to make every unit as strong as the outliers has made the game ridiculous. every response to making something strong is to buff some random other thing so that it’s even stronger. that is a cycle that never ends.
it ruins the map balance. it ruins the civ balance. and it ruins the matchmaking because people get 2v1’d by a combo of broken units and the games end immediately
Overbuffing is a problem that should be avoided. However, in this case, the argument is to buff expensive unique units up to the point of Longswords. It’s not an outlier, it’s probably the most basic unit in the game. I just don’t think that concern applies here. I also don’t get your request to remove supplies. The swordsmen line is universally considered underpowered, that’s why it, and supplies, are getting buffed soon.
No they’re not.
And it’s evident imho. TheViper used them only via the First Crusade tech.
He took armor upgrades, researched Elite Serjeant upgrade and TRAINED only ONE (or two) serjeant, despite having a castle and a couple of donjons, the others were deployed with First Crusade.
Now if you research elite upgrade just to spam them with a tech and never even consider training them, then we have a problem.
They cost too much gold, they’re the second most expensive infantry UU (third for gold) after the Teutonic Knight, but differently from the TK they lack a super strong melee armor, higher HP and good attack, pierce armor alone can’t compensate all the drawbacks, in fact I believe they are terrible cost effectively almost against anything, while being slow AF. However I don’t want them to be buffed in the stats, but in the cost to train them.
They need their gold cost toned down at least to 30 imho, and I bet nobody would train them even with that, as long as First Crusade stands as it is now.
What are even the infantry UU that would suffer from longswords and 2HS getting a slight buff? All I can see is castle age berserks and woads (but they were bad already and they become the best choice in imp anyway) samurai (but this has been the case ever since DE anyway) and Teutonic knights if you want to stretch it. Everything else is either different enough or already buffed enough or both.
So yeah this is overall quiet pointless to worry about.
I don’t think so. Some general purpose Infantry UU - WR, Berserk and Samurai too as their speciality just don’t shine that much - became very questionable after the inclusion Obuch (and maybe Sejeant as well). The advantage those UU have over Champion has been narrowed down slightly that’s for sure.
I think most of us forgetting that THS is getting 1 MA which is an Imperial age buff. Champion upgrade is pretty expensive compared to THS and often people stay with THS for a while. With 1 extra MA, I think players will consider going and staying THS over non Elite infantry UU. Militia → THS is way cheaper than Elite upgrade of most of the infantry UU (I think Obuch is the exception which is cheaper to train as well). So if players find that they need to stay either on THS or non-elite UU infantry as both elite upgrade and champion upgrade are fairly expensive, they will consider THS over UU more after the patch.
Maybe I’m over exaggerating. We will see soon how people use infantry.
To summarize, you nailed the big 3 with Woad, Berserk, Samurai, but several people have also mentioned Serjeants with their high gold cost (excluding first crusade), or Jaguars/Condotierri being too specialized. Even Kamayuks aren’t looking too great these days against non-cavalry units, they lose to longswords/champions with equal resources spent. Most seem to agree that T Knights, Obuchs, and Huskarls are fine already. Karambits seem ok after the recent buff (maybe a little heavy on gold cost still). And Gbetos and Axemen are too hard to compare.
I think JW’s speed should be same as Eagle warrior 1.15 in Castle Age and 1.3 in Imperial Age and their damage 8/9 instead of 10/12.
Teutonic Knight is by far worst unit in the game. Other infantries are fine. Throwing Axeman is stronger than it should be against archers. It has 0 PA but 70 hp and 1.1 speed is a lot against archers. They should get speed or hp nerf. With this cost, they beat almost all melee units not only infantries which is injustice. They can convert into their historical version. High speed, PA raiding unit with very low melee damage. 55/60 (elite) hp, 1.2 speed, 1/2 armor, 5/6 damage. Berserk also need small buff. +1 PA with -2 melee armor will make its raiding ability shine. Berserk is most expensive unit to upgrade but it countered by generic arbalester. In short, Viking Champion and berserk role must be separated. Champion should be melee proficient and berserk be archer killer and raiding unit.
This is a very interesting idea. Berserks do have shields similar to Huskarls or Skirmishers, which both have high Pierce Armor. I don’t really think +1 PA would make them an anti-archer unit though. That would be a total of 2 base PA (4 with armor) in Castle Age, which is less than Elite Skirmisher’s 4 (6), Eagle Warrior’s 3 (5) and far below Huskarl’s 6 (8) (which it should be, we don’t need more Huskarls). In fact, 2 PA is the same as Scout Cav, and Berserks would have the same HP as Bloodlines Scouts (not a sturdy raiding unit under archer or building fire). To make the role work I think they’d need 3 PA in Castle Age and 4 in Imperial (same as generic Eagles and Serjeants). After blacksmith upgrades they cap out at 8 PA, the same as Elite Skirmishers, and below the 10 on Elite Huskarls, Inca Eagles or Lithuanian Elite Skirmishers.
As for speed, I don’t think Berserks should be able to chase down Eagles (leave that unique feature to Woad Raiders). That means they could be increased from 1.05 to 1.1, but not as high as 1.15 (Eagle speed). For comparison, 1.1 speed is the same as an Eagle Scout or Lithuanian Spearman. In Imperial Age, the Elite Berserk could stay 1.1 or increase to 1.15 to 1.2, since Elite Eagles upgrade to a speed of 1.3. For comparison Condotierri are 1.15 and Woad Raiders are 1.2 (effectively about 5% faster due to their civ bonus being better than Squires).
To keep them balanced, I agree that melee armor would need to be removed (-2 to a base of 0). This does create a nice differentiation between the Champion role (slow and armored) and the Berserk (fast and arrow resistant). It wouldn’t be nearly as impactful as the Huskarl/Champ separation, or the Eagle/Champ, but it would be noticeable and give each unit a purpose. The ability to raid enemy eco and use as a better meat shield to protect Viking Archers from enemy Archers/Skirmishers would probably justify the higher cost of Berserks in this case, so they could remain at 65 food + 25 gold.