You all saw it. KOTD3, Dogao (as incas) chose to upgrade Xbow and Arb to go Archers in imp against Champ + Arbs Instead of making an easier switch into a unit that should be a stronger option against Champions.
Either that’s an indication that he’s hesitant to use a unique counter unit against the unit it’s intended to counter (which is an indication that it’s too weak) or an indication that he doesn’t care it exists.
We see incas often enough to state, without question, the Slinger was overnerfed. If it wasn’t, that should have been an easy, obvious choice in that situation. It should be tweaked, just slightly to incentivize people to make them and realize they’re actually solid.
Dogao threw, but players are poorly utilizing the Slinger and I don’t think there’s a clear argument they aren’t underappreciated.
So you recognize they’re not a bad unit.
If I understand correctly, your proposal is to buff them just to see them more often?
I don’t think balance should be directed by “frequence of appearance”. We don’t know the insights of why Dogao chose archers instead of slingers, but imo they do their job well and are used every once in a while. I remember viper went eagles-slingers in a game against Mr Yo in the first redbull.
It doesn’t have to be much. It doesn’t practically have to be anything. If you gave them .04 movement speed, I think that’d be enough to get players to recognize they’ve been being stupid about not using it, especially when the Archer upgrades haven’t been grabbed.
I don’t even think they need, or should get, the attack back from DE. They don’t need it. I just think they should get a tiny little bump to remind players they exist.
Maybe because they’re countered by Chinese Arbalesters?
Slingers are heavy imperial hand cannoners.
They are not.
Slingers, when fully upgraded, have 6 pierce armor and 8 attack/range, the Arbalest has 4 pierce armor and 10 attack/8 range. Per shot, Slingers do the exact same damage to Arbalests as arbalests do to Slingers due to Couriers. Archers do slightly more dps effectively because they get Thumb ring for higher fire rate. That’s the only notable difference in the Arbalest vs Slinger matchup. That’s it.
Without it, Slingers and Arbalests are exactly even in strength and the Slinger gets +10 vs infantry as a side bonus. It’s absurd how good they are compared to how little play they see and just a tiny tweak will fix that absurd atrocity because they just need to be put in people’s faces for ten seconds to take off again. That’s it.
TL;DR: Dogao messed up. T90 didn’t know it. Neither did you.
There could be many reasons. For example, slingers are hard countered by light cav, whereas arbalesters aren’t. So perhaps he wanted to avoid being countered so easily, on the other hand, it doesn’t take much to switch from slingers to arbalesters.
So you’d rather tech two upgrades and delay production when you have an answer now, to avoid the possibility that your opponent will delay production to get the upgrades he needs to counter the thing you’re making now, which just countered his army?
No, that’s not a reasonable concern. Dogao can know for pretty much certain that Max didn’t have any cav armor techs or the LC upgrade, even. And let’s just say for the sake of argument, he did. Eagles still outperform LC. Eagles get raiding, that’s a gg.
The clear option Chinese has to handle Eagles is Champion. Deny your opponent that option with Slingers and you should have a superior army at pretty much everything. Nothing he did makes sense unless you believe he thinks the slingers are bad. So they need a visibility buff. That’s all I’m asking for.
slingers use food, have 10% lower ROF, AND have a lower projectile speed
food is the slowest generated resource in the game, for all we know the bruv didnt want to make a food consuming unit over wood. either way the raw dps of arbs is still much higher than a slinger. maybe he didnt wanna tech fabric shields.
its foolish to say a competitive player messed up when you have absolutely no idea why he did what he did…
btw almost everyone has 20/20 hindsight… saying what he shouldve done, what wouldve been better and so forth but you dont know why he was doing what he did…
Fabric Shields is more expensive than the two arbalester techs, and without it slingers are weak against archers. So maybe that was the reason. He also might have taken into account the Andean sling cost, which isn’t necessary. From this point of view, slinger switch is much more expensive, especially in food department.
no bro! you and the pros are wrong! this bruv here is right!
btw i love slingers, and think they are way better than HCs…
I was saying it immediately.
Immediately when I saw the LS, I said “Get Slingers” because it’s without a doubt the correct decision. All he needed to do was blend in ten or twenty and he could have pushed that. He should have done that immediately. If he needed to stall for a little bit of time, Max’s base was open. He had every option available.
Giving up the map control to make a full transition into archers turns that winning position into even in a flash. Instead of doing that he decided to try to force a fight against his counter unit without support. Which turned a winning position into a losing position.
Also, you really need to stop relying on the wiki for every single one of your stats. It makes your utter lack of actual experience patently obvious when you read the differences verbatim off of the wiki like a “lower projectile speed” is a massive downside. Slingers only have a slower ROF after Thumb ring, a tech that Dogao hadn’t researched which is yet another cost preventing the transition. So at that moment, they would have performed exactly as described, or better.
He had a food bank to work with and he had the larger army. The only thing he was missing in that situation to win outright was an answer to Champion, and Slinger was that answer. Fabric shields isn’t necessary for it to simply handle that army. Fabric shields is nice in the long run, but going fabric shields when the problem unit is Champion? Not reasonable. And even without Fabric shields, they aren’t dramatically vulnerable to archers. They’ll take as much damage from archers as archers do. So they’ll survive just as long and do way more damage to the Infantry that are utterly butchering your eagles.
This is cut and dry. One unhappy poster taking gratuitous shots doesn’t change that.
Look, I think my point is being missed, so let me re-approach and summarize.
If I were a dev, and I watched that game between Dogao and Max, I’d assess that he had to have a reason not to go Slingers in that scenario given he was against the unit that is countered by it. Let’s assume I believe that option was readily available and he simply chose not to use it (which is what happened) there.
That means I, as a dev, should be trying to figure out why he didn’t. Here’s a string of those possibilities:
- Was it a situation that didn’t call for it?
No, the enemy was using a two-part composition, of which half is countered by Eagles, Half is countered by slingers. This makes it seem natural.
- Is the unit too weak? (-1 attack in DE) It was nerfed recently, so maybe?
- Is the unit too easily countered? (cavalry, non-ram Siege) Lacking Siege engineers, but having good hussars, maybe?
- Is the unit simply perceived as weak, and as such, the player thought it was a bad idea?
I’m going to bet it’s exposure over these possibilities, simply because I think the unit is in a good place. Maybe it needs a tiny bit of help. But in any case, the fact that the player chose not to make it against a unit it is intended to counter means it’s either not efficient enough or not appealing enough to be used in that situation. If it’s not appealing to be used in the situation where it is best served, it needs a buff.
I’m putting the fault on Dogao so as to assert the least possible burden on the Devs to make adjustments to make it more popular. If I don’t blame Dogao I have no choice but to blame the devs for nerfing it too much (which I don’t necessarily believe) and to require them to buff a unit significantly that I simply don’t believe needs one. Maybe just a slight cost adjustment would help a lot. The change doesn’t have to be much, I just want a visibility change to incentivize people to play it so we can judge where it’s currently at since I’m far from uncertain it needs a big change at all.
The unit should be buffed because their "“appearance” doesn’t enough reason.
Then you can make plenty of more arguments for specific unit should be buffed because they are rarely seen in competitive game. You think Teutonic Knight should be more buffed because simply they are not seen enough?
Also, I don’t think slingers are rarely seen. I remembered that MR_Yo vs Sitaux R32 game and MR_Yo used slingers as Incas against Celts.
Incas are solid civ overall and doesn’t need buffs.
I just want them to have a dumb, near pointless buff so that players are reminded that they exist and/or are good. To call it a buff is probably the wrong term. I should call it a near-pointless change.
slingers are fine, they fill the role similar to that of conditteros and HC. rarely seen but has it’s own use, leave them as is.
or you’d have to “explain in clear-cut examples what’s changed around them as to make the argument that they aren’t as good even though they haven’t been changed since to justify any adjustments”. lmfao
They got nerfed in DE
-1 attack when DE released.
That’s a clear-cut example. See how that works? Really simple. Now you try. I don’t think they’re in a bad spot. Do make sure you read up on what I have to say on the matter next time.
i’d say keep them as is, I use them a lot against infantry and they are very good. perfect for the incas
Agreed. I wish Dogao would have done the same.
Indeed, I am also wondering why Dev nerf slinger in DE. In HD, they have 5 base pierce atk. They can partially fulfill the role of ranged support as arbalester, which deal +1 dmg and faster attack. But in DE, they have base atk reduced by 1. This means they are quite lame against archers/cavalry but only effective against infantry.
Slinger was not even OP back then. Besides, slinger’s cost is quite expensive as a solely counter unit. HC can be at least a replacement of arbalest of some civs with bad archers. But slingers cannot be after the nerf. I agree lack of appearance is not enough for a buff. But why Devs nerf slingers in DE?
I think the nerf was justified, in a lot of cases they were just like Arbalests with bonus damage against infantry and they really shut down civs that didn’t have good cavalry to fall back on.
I think the pendulum swung too far from it though, and a bit of a tweak wouldn’t hurt and a couple seconds in the spotlight would help.