There is definitely a way to balance things without putting an emphasis on perfect micro. This means that the game is balanced at perfect micro, but you dont lose a HUGE advantage when not doing so.
A good example would be a game like starcraft where the problem is a lot more present, AOE4 did a good job at avoiding this. The changes suggested in this thread probably aren’t pro opinions anyway, so stop pretending you’re talking for the “pros” if that’s your concern. I havent heard any pro asking for archer nerf. I’m talking for my level I don’t put words in the mouth of others, and at my level I don’t like the idea suggested.
Just for the sake of it, let’s make a list (for feudal):
Knight civs:
-French / JD
-Rus
-Mongol
Infantry civs:
-HRE / OOTD
-Japan
Archer civs:
-English
-Delhi
-China / zhu xi
Versatile Civs
-Byzantine (keshik or longbow)
-Ottoman (mether speed for archer, or mether range def for horses)
-Mali (Sofa are almost knights, javelin thrower can dominate range)
Other civs:
-Abbasyd
-Ayyubids
So in this list, the only ones that could potentially struggle against an archer mass in my opinion is Abbasyd and Ayyubid, but this is compensated by the fact that you can go culture wing, age up fast, and then immidiately build a mangonel without any need for siege workshop.
Knights civ have absolutely no problem against range. Archer civ are, well archer civs, so its normal they also mass archer. Mali have Javlin, Ottoman have mether extra ranged armor and stronger horses, and byzantine have access to either keshik or longbow. So in my previous post i gave the example of Infantry civs because thats where I thought the issue was, but apparently infantry civs are also doing well against archer…
So who’s the issue ?
Edit: Maybe Delhi against another archer civ? I consider them archer civ because they have 20% attack speed so much better archer than other non-archer civs. But I can see how they could struggle vs English or China or even any of the versatile civs. I could potentially be fine with a +1 ranged armor boost tech on Gazhi raiders. I don’t think it would be needed for anyone else. They are called “raiders” after all so taking less damage from tc would be fine (they still weaker than knights so…) But i’d like the pro opinion on this.
I dont think you understand my perspective? MAA are not countered by archers at any point, especially not in feudal. Then consider HRE infantry moves faster which means its that much harder for opposing infantry mass to kite your MAA. So of course HRE has no issues dealing with archers in feudal. Then later all of HRE’s infantry buffs make it very very A MOVE friendly, and that onus is on the opposing infantry army to micro in other to stay competitive. Likewise samuria and Onna-Bugeisha are also A MOVE friendly composition and the onus again is on the opposing infantry mass to out micro.
This forum is suggesting horseman need a buff to better deal with range infantry maases. Alternatuvely, a better way to surround mass range infantry. I think if you want to argue the counter then you should have examples of how horseman can already deal with range infantry masses effectively. HRE MAA and JAPANESE sam are poor examples.
that’s why im asking which civs matchup are good example.
Check my other post I listed all the civs (we are talking about feudal only), the only one I could “maybe” see an issue is delhi , but even them its not that bad.
If you agree with me that delhi is the (only?) issue, what about suggesting a tech for +1 ranged armor on gazhi raiders?
Also when I play japan and HRE, in feudal against archer civ i usually mass horsemen (which have no advantage) i dont mass maa or bugeisha. And they’re doing fine. MAA + bugeisha are good, but only when they also massing spearmen. You still need horsemen to surround them properly.
Civ matchups is a deviation from the original topic. If i understand you correctly, you suppose many civs have an adequate feudal response to mass range. And my topic is specifically on how can we optimize the light melee cav to better respond to mass range?
You could rebuttal with why do we need light cav to be the answer or be a more effective answer to mass range? Then i would suggest th intuitive rock paper scissors (cav>archer>spear>cav). I believe this model should hold at any mass, and it does for spears>cav and archers> spears, but at a certain critical mass especially with kiting, it doesn’t hold for light cav melee vs archers? Why is this the exception?
I’d prefer it wasnt the exception hence why i suggested ways to rectify the situation. AND i don’t actually see you or anyone making a direct response on why NOT make the horseman stronger vs JUST range? it would buff nothing else?? Unchanged vs everything else, no changes at all in any other matchups to include static defense?
Actually yes! I want to copy the aoe3 extra range resistance solution that hussars and alike have, and how aoe3 gives static defense bonuses against light cav!! So, yes to both does concepts!
I’m sorry but im really confused by your argument.
You basically say “my topic is how to make cavalry stronger so we should make cavalry stronger”.
I’m saying that every civ has a good way to deal with mass range units, so why is it a problem in the first place? What problem are you trying to solve?
I don’t like AoE3 personally that’s why i play Aoe4. I think the counters are too strong in that game. I like softer counters with higher focus on strategic decisions.
Either you didn’t understand? or you’re being disingenious?
I don’t actually know if there is are more explicit way to say what i just said?
spears vs horseman always favors spears always at all MASS AMOUNTS? resource for resource.
archers vs spears always favors archers always at all MASS AMOUNTS? resource for resource.
horseman vs archers DOES NOT ALWAYS HOLD FAVORABLE TO HORSEMAN at all MASS AMOUNTS? At a certain CRITICAL ARCHER MASS; horsemen start to net DIMINISHING RETURNS? And when you add kiting and obstacles and blah blah blah; you can actually FAVOR Archers over Horseman?
If you had watched the video? the 30s video??? Literally you would have clearly seen? 13 sofa get massacured by 43 archers? While the video is not exactly a one for one what this topic is about, I believe it is highly suggestive of what would be very easy to go find in some high level game; where this critical mass range outperforms the horseman that “should” counter them.
Now actually I’ve confidence you’re gaslighting b/c your first post said this:
Your first post already offers a solution to MASS ARCHERS in opposition my suggested. So you already knew the conversation was “BUFF to all LIGHT melee Cavalry [as the answer to mass range]”
And still? You’ve not yet offered a direct rebuttal to why NOT buff Light melee CAv (you keep saying cav, which makes me think you’re including knights and whatnot?) to having higher resistance vs range units (all static defenses would be adequately buffed to negate my suggested range resistance buff)?
Man there’s no reason to get so defensive, people are allowed to share their opinions.
I checked the video and at the very start there’s like 6 sofa who have more than half hp, and 4 sofa have like 10% hp. So its more like 8 vs 32. And there’s even 3 horsemen who come help the archer at the end. The sofa player didn’t micro well (normally you need to surround the archer) they basically just A move, while the archer player is microing very well. Also we don’t know if the archer have more upgrades. I don’t understand how it’s supposed to show anything.
And even without all those, i don’t understand why 8 pop should beat 30 pop.
You asked for my rebuttal but i already mentioned that
-Horsemen are the fastest unit in the game
-archer can’t burn down buildings
-archer can’t run away from horsemen if out of position
-every civ already has a way to deal with mass archer
-i’m not in favor of very hard counters, i think 32 pop should beat their counter of 8. Even by resource count, that’s like 1440 vs 2560, close to double for the archers.
If you want to argue that ONLY sofa are too expensive vs archer, they are not light cavalary, they are heavy (so your whole post about light cavalry shouldnt be supported by a video of heavy cavalry unit). Sofa are heavy, but have same ranged armor and cost much more, so WAY less effective than horsemen against archer, horsemen are actually more resources effective than sofa against archer, so if you’re going to compare by resources best to check an actual light cavalry who’s purpose is actually to fight archer (sofa purpose is not), that’s maybe why mali have javelin thrower… For example you could get 21 horsemen for the same resources as those archer. I can garantee you that the 21 horsemen would win 32 archer there if you surround them properly.
Defense? I got iteriated with the original gaslighting you were doing? But I like opinions! Even though I have a different opinion from yours i can absolutely appreciate your points!
horseman are plenty strong/versatile/functional esp comparable to archers.
All civs have means to handle mass archers
sofa are not a good example to demo my alleged dilimea between critical mass range vs horseman?
I did already preface sofa aren’t light cav; and you’re right instead of using A video of sofa vs; I should have gotten a light cav vs to better support my alleged claims.
