Buffing Jaguar Warriors with +1 damage per kill

Jaguar Warriors are almost never seen, and are commonly seen as one of the worse unique units, only better than a few like the hussite wagon and teutonic knight. The basic problem is, they counter infantry, but nothing else, and infantry themselves are mostly used to counter trash, so the use case for them is extremely limited, even with their relatively massive damage.

Now, they need to remain specialized against infantry, but it would be nice if they were also useful against other units. So what if you made them good at killing other units, AFTER they kill infantry?

Here’s the idea: For every unit they get the killing blow against, that unit in particular gets a PERMANENT +1 damage bonus. If you send bare jags against anything but infantry, they’ll get massacred. But if you send them against infantry FIRST, they’ll rack up a few kills, get some statistical buffs, and then be strong enough to take down more than just infantry!

On the flipside, the ranked-up jags will become very valuable and need to be protected, so they wont be super overpowered. Wipe out a force of leveled-up jaguars and your enemy will face a serious loss in strength. And of course, this forces the aztec player to use them in their normal state first.

Side benefit, this synergizes with their powerful monks, as they’d be encouraged to heal the jags.

Thoughts?

4 Likes

Sounds fun for a custom scenario.

6 Likes

Aztecs have Eagles against Archers, Halberdier Pikemen against Cavalry and Jaguars against Infantry. Enemy Infantry counters the Eagles and Pikemen, so that Jaguars counter Infantry is important for the civ. I don’t think they are too weak.

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Yeah, sounds like a neat idea, there probably are similar mechanics already for some custom maps.

For ladder, i don’t think this is a good idea, i feel like jags might be seen a lot more if the infantry buff has any effect so further buffs might not be needed.

Aztec dont get halb, otherwise their lategame would actually be good.

Personally this just feels too gimmicky, and I’m not sure if it’d actually have a noticeable effects. Jaguars are squishy glass cannons in infantry fights, and getting +1 to +3 damage before they die ultimately has low effect on anything else.

I’d rather see this mechanic reserved for any new civ’s UU, perhaps something that has low attack but is tanky (and mobile?). However, it starts feeling a little too mythological. What would be the explanation for this damage-increasing mechanic? I get that not all of AoE2 is historical and doesn’t have to be, but such mechanics are what I’d come to expect from high fantasy RTS games. :stuck_out_tongue:

It could be easily explained by experience, a soldier who has killed before is more dangerous than a 16yo kid. Not that I care too much tbh, as long as the mechanic is fun.

2 Likes

I don’t think this would be good for AoE2 as a game. This mechanic would mean that certain individuals of the same type are better than others. That is not the case for any other unit you can produce in the whole game.

Jaguar warriors have one role in the game. That’s to counter champions, which are a counter to eagles. They are excellent at this job, but aren’t seen because people use units other than champions to counter eagles.

Besides these points, Aztecs are a strong civ at the top tier, and a very common tournament pick. A massive buff like this just isn’t warranted at the moment.

Could jaguars be better as units? Maybe. But I don’t think this is the way to do it.

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Bear in mind, they are getting a nerf with the cost increase to eagles. Also, with the very high default attack on jags, +1 won’t make as much difference as on almost any other unit.

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But that would stand true for literally every unit in the game. So why specifically Jaguar Warriors would be that way? I get that ‘it’s just a mechanic, who cares’, but at some point you’d like things to be at least somewhat grounded in reality.

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I don’t know yet how to buff Aztecs but I agree that they need a buff. Aztecs were a top tiers civ and became very average - weak.

There pikemen get destroyed buy Paladin even with +4 attack. Monks are usefull only in early castle but are not very usefull vs 30 - 40 paladins (except if you are the King of micro).

UU sux.

They get destroyed by any gun powder civ (except if you finish the game at castle age of before.

To finish Aztecs will be nerf again (+5 food eagles). They are loosing an advantage at feudal age (where they must be good) and stay same shit at late game.

Aztecs are good only to spam champions in team game or to bit Goth and Britons on 1V1.

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Jaguars can counter enemy infantry to protect their eagles but too squishy so aztec champ can play the same role with jaguars. Selling extra stone to mass champ might be better choice then massing jaguar.
I thimk jaguars should be tanky units like ######## 70 hp 2/2 armor and a little bir speed buff can male jaguars viable

The Aztec Garland Wars were very different from any other wars in history; they banned ranged weapons and focused on skillful duels and the like. Deaths were relatively uncommon at least early on. So canonically, Aztecs did probably gain more skill than most people from fighting.

Would still not be worth the extra cost, stone for castles etc. DPS on a militia-line replacement unit is not a major value addition to justify significantly higher cost. A couple of extra attack isn’t worth 15 extra food and 10 extra gold. Either champion line shouldn’t benefit from Garland wars or Elite Jaguars should get one of these- 2 base p.armor or base speed of 1.15 or 85 hp or cost lowered to 55f, 20g

1 extra attack isn’t a compelling reason to justify infantry uu that cost significantly more than militia line.

I swear I wrote this before the patch released. :smiley:

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Honestly, I don’t like it. I would try with something like gain +1 attack per hit (only against units) capped until +3 and lasts only a few seconds. This mean that you should keep attacking to maintain the attack buff.

Another raw idea is reduce the base HP but make the monks’ “+5HP per tech” bonus shared with Jags.

I guess they seem weaker now since barracks units have received a buff so I wouldn’t be against the idea of buffing them a bit. Maybe they could just get a different bonus instead. E.g. Extra bonus damage vs. stone walls or buildings or something. You can always go Atlatl skirms if your opponent is making xbow/arbalest to counter your jaguars. Jaguars are also great vs. Goths. Aztecs also get onager to counter ranged units.

Because you had to capture a certain number of enemies before being able to become a Jaguar Warrior.
Same for Eagle Warrior btw.

So it makes sense to make them “rank up” with kills (since there is no capturing).

An alternative idea would be to make Milita Line Infantry turn into Jaguar Warriors if they make enough kills but that would not always be an “upgrade” you want since you lose some attack, especially against buildings.

Maybe make Jaguar Warriors a little more expensive but better then Champions in every way. Then give Garland Wars the side effect to upgrade Champions to Jaguar Warriors if they make x kills.

2 Likes

They just received +1 PA which is not a small buff. So let’s see if they are enough now since on paper they are not bad now. They will remain niche for their bonus vs infantry, but they are more of a better Champion now since they get gambeson for free basically

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Actually you know what would be a better idea and also very fitting to the theme.

Recovering some HP for every kill they make. Like 5-10 HP for a kill.
That would help them stay in a fight longer and it would fit into the Aztec theme.
That would be a big help against trash units.

2 Likes

Interesting one…20 chars