Buffs for the terribly weak Bengalis and Dravidians

The fast cavalry units are primarily used for raiding, kill ranged units, snipe siege to protect your own or ally’s ranged units. S.Riders are excellent for all of these.

Actually most important for Dravidians because fighting against melee is not the purpose of cavalry units and Dravidians have the worst stable.

Turks get an extra p.armor on Scouts and archer players just add more spears. Bengalis aren’t weak for longer feudal plays. Its early-mid castle age where they fall apart with no options. Free cavalry armor will be a great bonus completely wasted on a civ that gets no knights and a uu that doesn’t depend on cavalry armor class.

Boom into light cav?? :smile: Those are very very very weak strategies. Elephants are a strict no for 1v1. So the only option is Rathas. Obviously you can’t play rathas like how people play Conqs or Janissaries but rather like Camel archer, keeping them a part of the imp composition.

Italians, Portugese, Byzantines, Bohemians and many more either have all monk techs or miss just heresy , have great siege with siege engineers and miss just 1 upgrade on infantry or range. Full upgrades on arbs and infantry is no where close to compensating for the lack of canons, siege engineers and monk techs. That’s why Bohemians, Byzantines are top 10 and Dravidians is at least bottom 15 if not bottom 10.

And then those light cav won’t be able to chase opponent light cav, opponent light cav will snipe your slow fervor-less monks, you have to invest a lot of that extra wood into making multiple spears. Somehow you did a terrific job and won the relic war, then what. You boom into what exactly? And how do you kill enemy canons or onagers with siege engineers? What will you do against civs with redemption and illumination and have good ranged units of their own?

Because you’d still lose to the meta uu into imp + canons civs and other top tier closed map civs like Britons, Byzantines, Burgundians, Bohemians etc. So it will perhaps become a top-15. What’s wrong in a D tier open map civ being top-10 or top-15 on closed maps?

So sorry that I disappointed you and didn’t come up with some useless non-buff which doesn’t impact the gameplay of these civs like medical corps +25 hp per minute, cost of Mahayana down by 100 food or urumi swordsman +5 hp.

These civs are definitely not going to get knights. So either an already decent uu should be strengthened to make it a fully uu dependent civ or some other line of units should become a viable option.

Its not actually. First of all EA as a replacement to CA is a terrible idea. And civs which lack knights get eagles or stronger camels for mobility and to fight against standard meta combos. Bulgarians, Malay or Cumans are a L2P issue as they have unorthodox bonuses that need a deviation from the standard meta play. Bengalis just lack 2 major unit lines and have missing upgrades for other generic units as well. There’s no dark age bonus or feudal age military bonus for feudal aggression, to get a significant lead in feudal age. Late imp isn’t great either as they don’t have hussar, last infantry armor for halbs and the elephant rams cost more gold, so the extra vills from pop space is only going to be sufficient to keep up for these late game weaknesses.

while it does make Elephant archers are a bit more viable, they’re still going to be unusable. Even with both of these changes tied together, it will only compensate for the lack of Parthian tactics and Elite elephant archers will still take 13 or 14 damage from each elite skirmisher hit which would make them quite fragile and cost ineffective against skirms in imp.

Elephants aren’t 1v1 units and Hera lost the game purely because of that long swords addition. His chat trolls and he trolls himself for that game. No one plays long swords against non-eagle civs.

Agree that both together would be a bit too much of a buff. Editing the original post.

Even for pros, its difficult to switch back and forth at that stage of the game where attacks happen at multiple sites on the map.

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And that’s why people mostly open scouts vs turks. Sure you can add spears but you havecto add them to each group of archers and that’s not only annoying to control but also a considerable investment. Bengali would profit a lot from that as that makes the transition to castle age so much easier and therefore gives them easier time in castle age itself.

What?? That’s the standard arena opening 11 And it’s not boom into light vav it’s the other way around. You make 2 or 3 scouts while going up to cadtle age and then depending on what your opponent does you make more and get light cav upgrade.

No. Monk rush is totally legit. So is early imp arbalests and siege push. Even elephant archers you can justify sometimes here. The civ has quite some options for arena.

Italians don’t have SO, siege and ram and siege engineers. Byzantines also lack two out of these so not exactly great siege for both. Also both civ don’t have the greatest infantry. Portuguese also not the greatest siege. Just having good bbc doesn’t mean you have FU siege. SO and bbc fulfill rather different roles.

Sure all I’m saying is that if you added bbc, siege engineers and all monk stuff to dravidians they’d be easy top 10.

That’s very debatable. A lot of UU don’t work vs monk civs. The only one that does is jannis. And Byzantines isn’t a top tier arena civ (you could have made that argument 2 years ago but not anymore). So I’m pretty sure dravidians would be top 5 civ. You have every single unit you might want and bonuses for infantry skirms. It’s just a boring approach to make a civ one of the best ones because they have it all.

2 free armors = 3 more BE. Not that cheap either. Castle age armor alone is = 2 BE.

My point was all 3 at the same time (Extra elephant armor, extra resistance and free regular armor) won’t be a good idea in some situation.

Only against spear units. Against ranged, they are monster.

True. 100% support.

And how is that solving Bengalis problem? BE, EA, Ratha - all of Bengalis choices are relatively good against ranged units than melee units.

They have cheaper to tech into halb to deal with cav and arguably best EA and archer line and one of if not the best skirmisher to deal with archer. For what they need S.Rider? Raiding and sniping siege? Why can’t a redesigned Urumi do that?

Actually true. Which is why I don’t like it.

First half is true. But there are more units other than archer, knight, and UU. Monk+Siege is an option, Spear+Skirm is an option, even elephant is an option if you can give a good buff.

While this is true, plz don’t make every civ Britons or Franks or Hindustanis or Tatars.

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If only Ratha used cavalry armor class instead, then we could talk about free cavalry armor.
Because honestly if you open with archers, which is most likely with Bengalis, there are really low probability that you’re going to upgrade the archer armor, on the other hand you’d pick cavalry armor upgrades for the light cavalry most likely.

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Well I agree.

I’m actually a bit confused there. Survivalist and Hera (Not sure about this one) suggested scout opening is their best option in 1v1 Arabia of which I have no idea why.

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Honestly at high elos I see 99% of the times Bengalis open with archers or drush (2-3 militia) ->archers.
They don’t seem to have anything going for scouts, and I don’t see how it might be their best opening, the 2 free vills you get with feudal can be sent immediately to wood or gold, but for food you need to build farms first, plus scouts can hit walls and do nothing, archers can harass way better, at lower elos scouts might work, but anything can work really.
Also if you set up a wood/gold economy you can switch better to Ratha in castle age. If you have a food economy what would you do? Light cav against knights? Wall and boom with pikes and skirms while your opponent takes the map? Not sure it’s the best for Bengalis.

Returning on the Ratha, probably if it had the cavalry armor it couldn’t be affected by Parthian Tactics and that would be a big loss imho.
Balancing Bengalis will be hard.

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Exactly, so what am I supposed to play then?

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Imho Bengalis are failed design at its best. A boomy civ that can’t boom into anything useful in the most important stage (castle age).
Yes there’s Ratha, but stone is very scarce.
The more games I see, the more I’m convinced that Bengalis should be played as 1TC castle age all in (or maybe 2TC) with siege elephants/mangonels, monks and crossbows, probably the opposite of what devs thought.
If you go xbows your opponent likely won’t be ready to counter siege elephants with pikes, for mangonels you have monks with redemption, for knights you have monks.
The more you try to turtle and boom, the more you are punished because you lack mobility to counter raid and to defend if you’re attacked in various spots.
Also, if you’re aggressive you can aggressively place castles to get map control, and while you attack with wood/gold units you can slowly add Rathas to your army.
That’s is what I saw from won games on Arabia on high elo, I think I saw just once elephant archers, but the Bengalis player had FOURTY vills advantage at that point, mainly due to successfull xbows raids.

After all you have to think, how do civs with similar lack of mobility (Vikings, Malay, Dravidians) play? Do they turtle and boom or play aggressively?

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Oh I see…the way you wrote it “boom light cav monks opening” felt weird. Ya castle age light cav monks is quite standard but opening arbs in imp with Bengalis is not going to be that good as they don’t have thumb ring.

Only vs Turks who for some reason didn’t push you in castle age with janissaries.

That’s just like doing monk rush with any generic civ which has redemption, atonement, sanctity and fervor. No dark age bonus that leads to very early castle age or some special bonuses for monk rush like Aztecs, Burmese, Bohemians do.

You barely ever get SO in 1v1 and Dravidians don’t get siege engineers, so its a very bad idea to spend so much resources into them (not that game will ever get to that point on closed maps with Dravidians). Dravidian siege elephants aren’t strong like Gurjara or Bengalis and are merely expensive capped rams. Onagers are sufficient but Bombard canons are extremely important for closed maps. And portugese siege is amazing. Siege units cost 20% less gold and bombard canons have the castle upgrade which makes canon wars quite favorable for the portugese player. And on top of this all of those civs have terrific units and closed map favoring bonuses as well - Condotierro/genoese + cheaper age upgrades and gunpowder, Cataphracts + cheaper imp + stronger castles, Organ guns + feitoria + ballistics for gunpowder. So even if redemption, illumination and canons are given to Dravidians, they’ll still remain largely inferior to most of these civs.

And that’s perfectly fine for a civ that’s bottom 10 on open maps. The whole point of either doing the cavalry buffs or the monk-canon buff is to make them either a good mid tier civ on open and EW or an A tier civ on closed.

Not really. Jannis sure can wreck even if you go monks. Organ guns are good for forcing redemption and going early imp into feitoria style play. Conqs + spanish monks are quite viable too. War wagon + Korean towers. And based on someone’s input from another forum, chakram throwers from Gurjaras too are a strong option.

Pretty sure it won’t. Terrible uu, abysmal cavalry, just 1 decent but not top tier eco bonus, no other special closed map specific bonuses. Can’t even put up a fight against the likes of Bohemians, Turks, Burgundians, Britons, Poles. And will still be quite weak compared to Byzantines, Ethiopians, Portugese, Teutons, Malay and maybe even Gurjaras. But after those changes it will be able to put up a decent fight against Khmer, Vietnamese, Aztecs and a few of the other strong upper mid-tier civs.

Against ranged, there won’t be a fight, ranged units will run behind pikes.

No one outside the casual Black forest player community makes them in standard RM 1v1 and shouldn’t make them either. And hypothetically even when made as primary army, they can’t be used for raiding and will get converted before they chase down and snipe siege.

Once again dealing with enemy cav is not the purpose of cav and I didn’t suggest S.Riders for that purpose.

Again, no one is going to make those.

I’m open to redesign which makes urumi a fast moving, less food intense, not so vulnerable to ranged units, fast produced unit with melee damage nerfed accordingly.

CA, eagles and camels/scouts with extra bonus. Those aren’t going to be available either.

Monk, siege, pike sort of feasible against non-meta civs on closed maps. Spear+skirm is purely for maps designed for feudal aggression like Atacama and that still needs knights/CA/eagles to follow up in castle age. Otherwise just scorps will clear these out.

NOPE. The only possible buff for usability is speed or low cost. Both would lead to Elephants getting very strong for team game pocket play and nerf threads on Khmer by the Frank pickers will get re-opened.

Nothing other than Rathas as of now. Hence the suggestion to open up Shrivamsha Riders as a regional unit.

Exactly.

Finally someone who talks actual ranked play stuff and not casual black forest things.

Am I the only one who is thinking the idea was actually make them similar to Koreans, a defensive civ? But due to not having any defensive bonus, that idea horribly failed?

In Arena you can go SO pretty comfortably.

In 1v1 yes. TG is a different scenario.

That’s why you can give them more bonus. After all Malay exists.

Probably that’s what they need - a buff in open land maps.

I can’t deny that. That’s why I lean more towards a defensive bonus to protect their eco.

Well you can suggest Camel Archer for Teutons and Rattan Archer for Burmese. They have weakness in dealing with CA and archer respectively. Now the problem is solved.
Bengalis and Dravidians are designed to lack mobility. And now you are addressing that by giving the fastest unit in the game.

A civ without mobility can’t play defensively imho, so if that’s the devs’ thought that’s a concept error, again look at Malay, Vikings, Dravidians do they play defensively or go on the offense?
Even Koreans play quite offensively in reality, as they have a bit cheaper archers/skirms with free armor in feudal.
On closed maps like Arena early castle age aggression is almost guaranteed when you see Koreans.

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Yes Bengalis is similar to them rn. But I’m saying maybe the actual idea was to make them similar to Koreans but devs didn’t give them any defensive bonus as they thought their eco+elephant will be too strong.

They are defensively offensive. This may sound ridiculous. I’m trying to say their defensive bonuses are so strong that these can be used as offense as well.

Not sure what the idea was, but it’s a failed one.
You can’t expect to win your games thanks to a post-imperial fantasy composition, not even on most “closed” maps.
I mean even post-imp civs like Bohemians, Turks, Spanish and Portuguese have plenty of tools for castle age aggression.

Again I’m not talking about how good the civ is currently but how good I would be in scenarion. Ofc you never make SO without siege engineers that doesn’t make sense. But if they had it and they also had bbc and full monks besides their powerful infantry SO can be really strong if you have the time to tech into it. SO is very viable if your not getting pushed early imp. And of you do you have perfect defensive tools so who cares.

Dravidians have their own strenghts (strong infantry, cheap baracks techs, strong skirm, better eco than the civs above). Even if you argue the above is better in your scenario that would be outweighed that they’d have the best arena tech tree in the game. Don’t underestimate the power of full siege and full monks.

If you also add fervor and siege engineers (which was your intention) I believe they would be for sure.

Organ guns are good but unless you get forward castle (which usually isn’t the case) falling back if opponent goes monk defense isn’t good. It’s still winnable but you’ll have disadvantage for sure. And conqs and war wagons just aren’t the best units for 1v1. Castle drop unit rarely works here unless opponent has bad decisions making. Bengalis are perfectly fine for defending all these.

You mean because of skirms? You can play onager and if opponent makes their own siege you go monks. Insane comp with elephant archer. It’s expensive that’s why oftentimes it doesn’t make a lot of sense to play bit sometimes you aren’t pushed early imp because you have the map or your opponent tries to go for their own power comp then elephant archers are very good choice in most civ matchups.

The UU is terrible vs archers but great vs any melee unit. Right now you can abuse that because dravidians have bad siege monk options. That changes if you give them everything you proposed. I think you underestimate how powerful having all these units is (which is why there isn’t a civ that has all these). Every civ has a weakness but this one wouldn’t. Your cav sucks but who cares it’s arena. Speaking of that there is one minor weakness namely not having husbandry can be somewhat bad in scout v scout for relic war but that’s the only thing I can think of.

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For Dravidian I would just give them husbandry, bloodline and elite BE but remove wootzsteel’s effect from their stable units.

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You can say that. At this rate you can literally give some of the strongest bonus like free fletching, bodkin, bracer or free xbow, or the most requested archer +10% movement speed and they will still not be broken.

I feel like last armor is more important for them than BL. Husbandry is a must though.

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Yeah I hope Wootz Steel get nwrfed to be only barracks or at least that the Dradivians get viable units which dont ignore armourtbh

I’ve been playing with the new civs a lot since their release. Bengalis being my favorite civ out of the 3.
Now people might disagree with me, but here is my opinion:

Dravidians: They are great on water, but modest on land. I think of them as slower italians. My problem with them is that they struggle a lot to break free from deadlocks. Unlike other civs, they need bbc for those situations. On the other hand, they need bbc for similar not-so-frequent cases like briton arbs+scorpions, sO+mangudai, khmer/celt deadball, etc. Don’t get me wrong. On paper, dravidians do have the options to deal with these, but the compos are too expensive for such scenarios and take too much time to tech into. Because of that, I personally think that bbc could help them with that problem in 1vs1 more effectively.

Bengalis: When they came out, I perceived bengalis as pretty strong because it was possible to send 2 extra vills for trush-elephants, and also their maa-archers was safer economically thanks to their free vills. But now that people are getting used to fight against bengalis, it’s clear this civ becomes awkward once the initial aggresion is repelled in late feudal-mid castle age. Personally, I’ve been having problems with this point. Now I figured out that I get more success if I play them as old aztecs and go for classic archer strats.
The thing is that aztecs have eagles (70 res) which give them a pivotal point to get opportunity windows and time for upgrading and getting more expensive stuff later. Meanwhile, bengalis could do great in feudal and early castle age but they will struggle to get opportunities to transition into their very expensive units like elephant archers, battle eles or armored eles. They don’t have a support unit like eagles to help them with that in mid castle age-early imperial. The closest thing is light cavalry (80 res) who can’t snipe enemy vills fast enough or intercept enemies effectively. This is not an eco or tech problem, it’s a pivot unit problem.
Imo giving more attack to their scout line as a civ bonus could be nice. But I don’t think this is a good idea and it’s too lazy. Or maybe including scouts in their paiks ut could help but I don’t know. Haven’t done the math.

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New bonus for Dravidians:

  • BE cost only food so they get Trash BE with wootz steel ( for free or together with Medical Corps)

i know solves nothing but I find it funny

Why ya want to turn the Urumi into an Eagle warrior? If it had enough speed and PA to be good for raiding, it would literally have no weaknesses. Not to say that the unit can’t be tweaked (it should be), but there is nothing about its current design that suggests it is ever intended to become a raiding/siege sniping unit. BBC + SE is a simple fix for Dravidian weakness (maybe even taking away Siege Onager).

That almost sounds like a decent option (just getting BE and no husbandry is a joke), but BE isn’t really a great counter vs. massed siege. Even if you throw in the last cav armor as well, they’d just be fully generic BEs. Every other civ that gets BEs has a bonus/tech for them and even then they’re not the most viable except for Khmer/Malay. I don’t think anyone would make even FU BEs if they were fully generic.